IndianaRunner

[Drake]

Here you can discuss Maddison Russell's training.

Feel free to ask questions, make comments, critique or just read!

Maddison will likely chime in and answer.

Here you can find his latest blog entry:
http://indianarunner.com/MaddisonRussellTrainingBlog2011.aspx

[WarriorXC09]

Heyyyyyyy guys. Maddison here. I am very excited to start blogging. Hopefully me and my story can help give people some inspiration, entertainment, or info. I will be the first to admit that I am the slowest of all the IR bloggers, by quite abit in some cases. I wouldn't call myself slow, my PRs and fitness this year were very similar to the nation's top high school girls. I don't find alot wrong with this though, because backpedaling 4 years, I have alot of reasons to be thankful for what I've been able to do. I have come off a very adverse track season though, and hopefully I can prolong injury for a long time now. I'll be joining IUs run club for a chance to train and compete with people, but will be writing all my own workouts. I'd like to think I know a great deal about this, but Ill be my own guinea pig of sorts for the next year. More info is in my bio don't want to let all that out before Drake puts it out. However, my main goal this fall is to run at NIRCA XC regionals and nationals, and to compete for a top ten. I will be more than happy to answer any questions once my blog starts up, and I always welcome curiosity and any comments you may have. thanks!

[TheChasePack]

If I could offer some training advice that you can debate with me if you feel differently...

For the 8k and 10k distance, the long run should be your most important run now and throughout the season. I don't know if 7.5 miles was your planned long run or not but at 52 miles in a week you should be at least 10 miles and probably 13-14. The rule of thumb is 20% but I am an advocate for 25-30%. This will be your most painful run for the first few weeks but as you build up to around 2 hours and can run for that long consistently it will start to feel dramatically easier. At that point, the long run can be used as a tempo run in the middle 5 or 6 miles. I can see the benefits of this but have never tried it since I consider the long run as much of a social event as anything else. From personal experience I can tell you that your fitness will improve much faster than you believed possible simply by increasing your long run.

Along with that and the importance of a long run. I would suggest running 12 times a week and combining runs once during the week. If running 2 hours on Sunday will increase your fitness exponentially, just think what adding a 90 minute week day run will do.

[Run_4_Life]

Along with that and the importance of a long run. I would suggest running 12 times a week and combining runs once during the week. If running 2 hours on Sunday will increase your fitness exponentially, just think what adding a 90 minute week day run will do.

Or after he gets a little more comfortable with the higher mileage, he could continue to remove doubles throughout the week. He could take a Wetmore type of style and attempt to get most of his mileage in singles, which can be very beneficial. Think of what adding 5 weekly 60 minute runs can do

[TheChasePack]

Along with that and the importance of a long run. I would suggest running 12 times a week and combining runs once during the week. If running 2 hours on Sunday will increase your fitness exponentially, just think what adding a 90 minute week day run will do.

Or after he gets a little more comfortable with the higher mileage, he could continue to remove doubles throughout the week. He could take a Wetmore type of style and attempt to get most of his mileage in singles, which can be very beneficial. Think of what adding 5 weekly 60 minute runs can do

And by Wetmore type of style you mean what Colorado did when "Running with the Buffaloes" was written like 12 years ago? Considering Wetmore now has his runners do doubles 4 to 5 days a week just like most the other elite high school, college, and professional programs.

[Run_4_Life]

Along with that and the importance of a long run. I would suggest running 12 times a week and combining runs once during the week. If running 2 hours on Sunday will increase your fitness exponentially, just think what adding a 90 minute week day run will do.

Or after he gets a little more comfortable with the higher mileage, he could continue to remove doubles throughout the week. He could take a Wetmore type of style and attempt to get most of his mileage in singles, which can be very beneficial. Think of what adding 5 weekly 60 minute runs can do

And by Wetmore type of style you mean what Colorado did when "Running with the Buffaloes" was written like 12 years ago? Considering Wetmore now has his runners do doubles 4 to 5 days a week just like most the other elite high school, college, and professional programs.

I'm pretty sure that the champions that Wetmore has produced have mostly done singles with their mileage was more/less what I was meaning. Also, look at the past... 15 years or so? of NCAA champions, most of them have done a lot of their training with singles or with limited doubles.

Of course this type of training isn't for everyone, and every runner is different, I was just suggesting something he could try. Doubles do play an importance such as a runner who is looking to add mileage but can't always handle the stress of the mileage in a single run or when a runner is trying to add mileage when they are already at very high mileage.

Maddison has his training mostly planned out he has said, so I don't want to change anything he has planned and I hope for the best for him. But in my opinion, I don't see the need for so many doubles here. He will be training for 8k and 10k races correct? (I am not positive of the championship distance for the Club runners, but I am pretty sure it is one of those). He said he will be doing about 60 miles a week training for this, and if he is doing 13 runs a week that is less than 5 miles per run average or if he is doing 12 runs a week that is a 5 mile per run average. This would be like doing 3 miles or less per run on average throughout the week while training for a 5k. That isn't building the aerobic system a great deal for these longer distances that will be raced, and the 8k-10k will feel a lot different than the 5k so building a larger aerobic system is key. If he were doing something like 90 miles per week I could understand doing 12-13 runs throughout the week, but I feel like at 60 miles per week his body should be able to handle only about one or two doubles per week while still getting in the mileage.

Of course this is all my opinion, which really means nothing. I do not know everything about his situation. He has said that he is recently coming off of an injury this spring, so maybe he is trying to do a decent amount of weekly mileage without taking a chance on getting an injury by stressing his body.

(I smell a singles vs doubles debate... which I will probably be outnumbered in )

[rm14]

Obviously there is no set-in-stone way to train. But, I tend to agree that for the 8k/10k distances, most runners are going to get more of a benefit out of running primarily singles rather than doubles (if their bodies can handle it). I saw your training blog for your third week, and I also understand that you are building up your base mileage as well. I would say that many of your runs could be combined into singles rather than doubles, but that is just my opinion. For example, I believe I saw a day or two where you ran 4-5ish in the morning, and then 2-3ish in the evening. I believe that you are going to get more benefit for the 8k/10k racing distance from combining that run into a single. Now don't get me wrong, I think that doubles have their purpose and place in a training schedule, but I think you would get more benefit from cutting your doubles down and primarly focusing on singles given your weekly mileage goals for the time being. Best of luck with your training.

[WarriorXC09]

well, I appreciate the interest. I'll try to explain myself as fully as possible here, and I appreciate the advice, which I may take.

First off, yes, I am coming off a bit of an adverse season. I have hypothyroidism still and had anemia for awhile which were two of the biggest hinderances. Second, I had, and still have a condition called "hammertoe" which I still run on. There is no way to fix it unless I undergoe reconstructive surgery which would put me out 12weeks (they literally have to "shorten" my toes). This is relevant on the topic of the long run. Chasepack, I agree that a long run is important, however, I don't see it as the single most important aspect of training. The reason the longer run is so short right now, is because of my hammertoe condition. Anything over 10miles and it begins to hurt very very bad. This is also why I am doing so many doubles, I am worried with around an 8mile run everyday, my condition will worsen greatly, as it was around February when I was doing all singles around 8mi. It hasn't hurt bad for a month or so, so there is hope there. my My plan was to nurse myself back up to about a 13 mile or so long run in a few more weeks. The reason the two runs a day are so short at the beginning, is because I wanted my body to get acclimated to running twice a day, without increasing volume too quickly or getting injured. Also, I had considered going back to mainly singles after a few weeks, with a few days on doubles, I still really haven't decided yet, although I have written a plan, it is very workable. Once mid august hits, my mileage will go down and I will be doing mainly singles. Since I have never really been that high of a mileage guy, doubles seemed like they gave me the best shot of getting in more miles while keeping the risk for injury down. I will be peaking out at 70mpw in a few weeks, If I feel strong enough to get 70mpw on around 9-10 runs a week, I will. And I think that there are both benifits and downsides to running singles vs. doubles. Obviously a run of 10 a day vs. 2 runs of 5 would be more benificial from an aerobic standpoint, but I am just not sure if I'd be able to handle 9-10miles per day while staying heathy at this point.
And yes, the racing distance in club XC is 8K.

Thanks all.

Or after he gets a little more comfortable with the higher mileage, he could continue to remove doubles throughout the week.

this would be the most likely option.

[TheChasePack]

If you can only get up to a 13 mile long run than you will struggle to be top 10 at NIRCA nationals this season. If you look at past results, the top 10 is juniors, seniors and grads. The 8k is an extremely hard race to adjust to at the college level and is the reason almost every division 1 freshman redshirts the freshman year. For prospective, last year it took 26:39 to be top 10. The IU guys who are making a run for a national title this year ran intercollegiates there 2008. Turner ran 26:26, Bayer ran 26:00, Zach Mayhew went 27:32. Along with that, David Goodman who is now a D2 national champion went 26:33. Your You will have to improve your 5k PR by close to a minute and then pick it up for the last 3k. I'm not saying it is impossible (I ran a 15 second PR through 5k in my second collegiate 8K) but it will be beyond impressive if you can do it without improving your training significantly from what you were doing in high school.

[WarriorXC09]

but it will be beyond impressive if you can do it without improving your training significantly from what you were doing in high school.

thats what I'm doing.

[TheChasePack]

My other question is why you are not getting surgery on your hammertoe now? if your most important goal is to make IU's team then taking 3 months off now will not hurt you in a couple years. You will never reach your full potential if you continue limit you are always running in pain and can never train as much as you would like. This would seem like the ideal time to get the surgery to me. You have no team that is relying on you this season and you are not on a short time limit to reach your running goals.

On the flip side, if you get top 10 at NIRCA nationals then you will probably make the varsity team next year anyways (but just to get surgery and sit out for the year?) since you will be about the best freshman at IU. I think Overway is the only other guy who would be able to be top 10 at NIRCA nationals this year and even he would be on the edge.

[Run_4_Life]

On the flip side, if you get top 10 at NIRCA nationals then you will probably make the varsity team next year anyways (but just to get surgery and sit out for the year?) since you will be about the best freshman at IU. I think Overway is the only other guy who would be able to be top 10 at NIRCA nationals this year and even he would be on the edge.

Welsh, Mascari, and Filimon might disagree with you

I think quite a few people underestimate Morgan W. a lot.

[1bob11]

Alright, alright, it's time for me to back up my boy Maddy.

For the 8k and 10k distance, the long run should be your most important run now and throughout the season.

Pshh....yeah right. Tell that to Renato Canova, coach of Imane Merga (World XC Champ). I've read through multiple training plans that he puts his runners through, and I don't think I've ever seen him prescribe that his runners go more than 70 minutes in a run. Now, he does believe in high mileage through doubles, but certainly not really long long runs. And this 2 hour business...waste of time. It's all about race specific training, and long runs are only race specific for marathons/half marathons, so you cannot say that they are most important for 10k training.

[WarriorXC09]

My other question is why you are not getting surgery on your hammertoe now? if your most important goal is to make IU's team then taking 3 months off now will not hurt you in a couple years. You will never reach your full potential if you continue limit you are always running in pain and can never train as much as you would like. This would seem like the ideal time to get the surgery to me. You have no team that is relying on you this season and you are not on a short time limit to reach your running goals.

On the flip side, if you get top 10 at NIRCA nationals then you will probably make the varsity team next year anyways (but just to get surgery and sit out for the year?) since you will be about the best freshman at IU. I think Overway is the only other guy who would be able to be top 10 at NIRCA nationals this year and even he would be on the edge.

well, I had considered it, in fact, that was my plan orginally back when I had to take time off because of it. Then I found new goals and did better than I thought I would. In the end, a guy like me wouldn't handle it very well. So far, it has not pained me to great extent for a long time. I have yet to see if longer runs will continue to hurt it. My plan is to try and get over 10 tommorrow. We will see. I guess my thought is that it didn't bother me before this past season, so maybe It will subside again and I just did something to aggravate it back in feb. Also, taking it easier after track and all probaly helped it, and if I take a decent break after each season, I think I can keep it at bay. Also, I am doing everything I can to keep it away like using tennis balls, plantar balls, ice and stretching. I am optimistic about it but I guess we'll just have to see. Hope that answered it. thanks.

[TheChasePack]

Alright, alright, it's time for me to back up my boy Maddy.

For the 8k and 10k distance, the long run should be your most important run now and throughout the season.

Pshh....yeah right. Tell that to Renato Canova, coach of Imane Merga (World XC Champ). I've read through multiple training plans that he puts his runners through, and I don't think I've ever seen him prescribe that his runners go more than 70 minutes in a run. Now, he does believe in high mileage through doubles, but certainly not really long long runs. And this 2 hour business...waste of time. It's all about race specific training, and long runs are only race specific for marathons/half marathons, so you cannot say that they are most important for 10k training.

Canova is probably the most controversial coach in the world right now. His training is pretty different than anybody elses. Most training programs are loosely based on Arthur Lydiard and prescribe a long run upwards of 20% with many reported runs over 3 hours. This same training holds true for many of the many of the Kenyans including Bekele who has a 10K PR about 30 seconds faster than Merga.

Also (

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) watch around 4 minutes into the video. Standford usually has pretty good teams so I don't think long runs of close to 2 hours is hurting them much.

And to your final point, many American runners have ran PR's on the track after moving to marathon training. Some pretty significant. Why would they not get slower in the 10K if they were training for the marathon if marathon training is a waste of time and the only thing that matters is race specific training?

[TheChasePack]

To Maddison,

This is what upsets me about your goal...

It is written as if you think NIRCA is a joke and anybody who trains can be top 10 at nationals. I have a friend who runs well well over 100 miles per week every week and he was around 60th. NIRCA is not just for guys who weren't good enough to run in college. There are guys running for Illinois and Wisconsin that would be on there varsity team but CHOOSE to run club. That is why I am saying you will not be top 10. You will be running against several div. 1 varsity caliber guys and your goal is just to make the team? I think it is disrespectful that you think you can beat these guys who have been training hard for years and are quality runners just because they are not on division 1 teams.. There are good runners out there who CHOOSE not to run division 1. Somebody was talking about Wetmore and Colorado on here and the truth is there are years that there are two division 2 teams in their own state that roll them up. If you run sub 27 minutes at IU's course as a true freshman in college then there is no school in the nation that wouldn't let you walk on and several second tier schools would be offering you scholarships. Here is something else to put your goal into perspective. Nolan Fife ran 15:30's and 4:13 in high school without even concentrating on running. According to the coach's he is the next big thing at IU...as a Freshman he ran 27:04 and 26:33 on IU's course. You on the other hand were a 16:50 guy who probably focused a lot more on your running and Coach Helmer didn't bother to recruit you. You think you are better than Nolan?

[WarriorXC09]

Um no, I am extremely disapointed if that's the way you percieved it. I have always set high goals for myself and perhaps that leads me to think a little bit "unrealisticaly" for some people? I do not think NIRCA is a joke, If I did, why would I be participating? I have already acknowledged that I am not as fast as those other guys. I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone at IU, and no I am not faster than Nolan, don't be ridiculous. I love the fact that guys go out there and run NIRCA and train there butts off. Perhaps my goal is unrealistic. I looked at results from last year and thought that mid 26's wouldn't be out of the question for me, and if that doesn't get me top 10, so be it. No, I wasn't born with great talent, I admit that, Nolan and those other guys work super hard and are talented. Heck, I was a 21 and 22min guy as a freshman, and ran a 6:30 mile in 8th grade. Seeing the top guys in our state and otherwise running great motivates me alot. When I see others do great things, it makes me want to be there too, and work even harder. Of course Helmer didn't recruit me, he can't just go after any old guy who is super passionate and works hard (there are alot of us), he needs guys on his team that were good in high school, I know this, and respect it. Just look at who he did go after this year. IN my opinion, you were way out of line with that comment. I am sorry you don't like my goals, but Im sure you've had things you wanted to accomplish too, and maybe other people didn't think you could, or you where foolish. Maybe you accomplished that thing, or maybe you didn't, fact was, you tried. Personally, it kinda hurts to have you write something like this and I don't take offense as much to the fact that you mock my PR's, which I can deal with, but the fact that you thought for one second I don't respect all those guys that work hard to accomplish great things in the sport that I love just as much as anyone out there.

[ac_xc]

Here is something else to put your goal into perspective. Nolan Fife ran 15:30's and 4:13 in high school without even concentrating on running. According to the coach's he is the next big thing at IU...as a Freshman he ran 27:04 and 26:33 on IU's course. You on the other hand were a 16:50 guy who probably focused a lot more on your running and Coach Helmer didn't bother to recruit you. You think you are better than Nolan?

Hope I'm doing this quoting thing right but, anyway, to "The ChasePack", what you run in high school and your training methods can drastically change once you race at the college level. For example I had a fried=nd who ran 16:40 in high school, broke 17:00 about 3 or 4 times total, then ran sub-26:00 as a freshman in college. I think that training will probably be the biggest factor in how you can improve. Good luck running NIRCA this year, Maddison. I support you!

Also, unrelated question: do you prefer track or xc and why? Also, what distance do you think you prefer? What ways are you changing your training from 5k to 8k (if at all).

Thanks

[WarriorXC09]

Good luck running NIRCA this year, Maddison. I support you!

thanks, I really appreciate it, means alot.

Also, unrelated question: do you prefer track or xc and why? Also, what distance do you think you prefer? What ways are you changing your training from 5k to 8k (if at all).

Personally, I have always been a bigger fan of track, because that's where all my best performances have occured and I like the structered and constant setting of a track, marks every 100, 200, 400 etc. I love cross country too, and they both have great aspects, the team aspect in XC in very unique and very special. Right now, anywhere around the 3K or 2mile distance is what I like the most, obviously that's only run indoor, so I think eventually as my miles and training increase I will be a 5K guy or possibly 10K. I want to learn to love the 1500 as well. My training is changing from high school in a variety of ways. In high school, the most I got in consistently was 45mpw. I hit 50 and close to 60 a few times. last week was 60, now, this week will be 65, and I'll be at 70 for my peak. Obviously the overall volume is what changed the most. Also, I am putting alot more stock into LT or tempo runs, cruise intervals, and hill workouts over the summer. Before with the season starting so early I was forced to run harder workouts earlier, which I think hurt my chances for a great base season. I don't start fartleks until the end of this week or next week I think, which would be about 5-6weeks into training. I wanted a good tranisition from pure hill workouts to fartleks with a focus on hills. Also, once my harder and VO2 workouts start Ill be trying some different stuff. I will be keeping the classic 1000's workout in my training. Also featured are workouts like 8x800 at 3K pace and stuff like that. Thinking long term, I'll be do some faster shorter stuff to work on speed and finishing strength as well. I have alot more long repeats too now that Im moving up in distance, I think I wrote up a 3x2mile workout at 8K pace for ex. Also, mile repeats at a pretty quick pace. I didn't really do any of that stuff during XC in high school. It was the same every week. Monday was 1000s, thursday was tempo, saturday a race or shorter stuff like farleks, 800s or 400s. I think I have found a good balance of variety and consistency this time around. I have also been considering trying some paavo things as well, to see if specific aspects of the progam can be benificial without the whole process. This is all about finding out what works and what doesn't, hopefully I hit on something good. So, in conclusion, more variety, more volume overall, more volume in workouts and repeats, and abit less rest time than I'm used to.

[1bob11]

ChasePack- You are talking to an incoming freshman coming off an injury and you are

A) Giving your own training plan which would most likely leave him burnt out or injured at this stage and

B) Totally shooting down any hopes and dreams that he has to reach the goals that he has set out in front of him.

Now, I don't know if you are trying to say this, seriously please do correct me if I'm wrong. But I didn't sign up for this stuff. I don't know, but I feel like I'm somewhat in the same shoes as Maddy is. You know, being a relatively "unknown" and "under the radar" type of runner can be hard some times. You work your butt off and barely get recognition, and people will shoot you down in a second if you think you can do big things. When you do, it's a fluke, everyone else had a bad race, etc. You might think it's kind of BS, but I think it's partially true. The same can happen with Maddy. He might be working harder than ever, making more gains than ever before, taking risks and putting it out there. Your response to this is basically along the lines of "you don't have a shot you stupid kid". I mean come on man, what kind of attitude is that?Jeez...bringing up Nolan Fife? God what's with that? So what if Maddy didn't run 15:30s in high school? Big things can happen, especially when you work hard and are dedicated. He's obviously not writing anyone off. He's simply saying "hey I know that I have to be this good and I'll darn well try to get there." Yeesh it's hard even using this rated PG language right now, I definitely have a few choice words for you right now.

Maddison, you know who I am, and you know I've always got your back. Keep going for it man, I know it helps me want to try my best and do what I've gotta do.

[WarriorXC09]

Maddison, you know who I am, and you know I've always got your back. Keep going for it man, I know it helps me want to try my best and do what I've gotta do.

thanks so much for the support dude! I hope you continue to excel and have some great performances this year too!

[Poochy]

I have tons of respect for guys like Maddy who are fast because they work hard rather than it being natural talent like myself (Filimon) and futsum. Futsum works hard now but he had no idea what he was doing freshmen year and ran a 15:02. 2 guys on my team, Jared Burris and Brice Mossman worked so hard from the 2009 xc season to the 2010 season and it showed as jared's pr went from 16:58 to 16:08 and Brice went from 18:17 to 16:18 at semi-state. When i see them work so hard, i just wanted them so bad to be running along side me in races cuz its unfair that they work harder but i was just born with talent.

Tons of respect Maddy, I know u can do it with the amount of dedication I've seen from you. I would love for u to eventually be my teammate at IU. Keep up the hard work and good luck with ur goals. Hit me up this fall and we'll do some runs together

[WarriorXC09]

Tons of respect Maddy, I know u can do it with the amount of dedication I've seen from you. I would love for u to eventually be my teammate at IU. Keep up the hard work and good luck with ur goals. Hit me up this fall and we'll do some runs together

Thanks so much, the support is appreciated! Good luck to you as well this season! Yeah, definately man, sounds good to me.

[4SStar4sstar]

There is NOTHING wrong with the way Wetmore trains his athletes. I know a few that I've trained with that actually swear by singles for anything up to 100mpw. Obviously going above 100mpw without doubles becomes non-beneficial. They'd also tell you that.

Just my 2 cents.

-4sstar

[1bob11]

Maddison, how do you feel presently compared to last summer with what I'm guessing is your first time running doubles consistently 6x a week? I'm assuming that you've had to change up some of your daily habits in order to do this, it'd be cool if you can elaborate on that. Also where do you get these odd workouts that you do? Are you feeling much faster now than you've ever been?