IndianaRunner

[The_Profit]

I'm surprised there isn't a list out there of top times and I be no means am saying the list I made accounts for every run on that course but I thought ti was pretty interesting that Turner, Anthony Williams, and Brendan Smith all state champions couldn't break the top 10 of this list. I'm pretty sure Mike McClaren was a footlocker finalist. Anyone else know of any times faster that should be on this?


1 Michael Fout 12 Laporte 2007 NP Inv. 15:12.10
2 James Martin 12 Carroll 2010 NP Inv. 15:19.5
3 Brad Hess 12 Carroll 2010 NP Inv. 15:24.8
4 Grant Nykaza Beecher, IL 2011 NP Inv. 15:26.8
5 Jason Casiano 12 Portage 1990 15:29
6 David Osborn 12 Chesterton 2009 NP Inv. 15:29.5
7 Kyle Overway Logansport 2010 NP Inv. 15:30.6
8 Mike McClaren 11 New Prairie 1989 15:32
9 Mitch Hubner 12 Laporte 2011 NP Inv. 15:33
10 Ahmad Aljobeh 11 Valparaiso 2010 NP Inv. 15:36
11 Anthony Williams 12 Gary Mann 1988 15:37
12 Eric Smoot 12 Gary Mann 1990 15:37
13 Jaurice Dye 12 Elkhart Memorial 2006 NP Inv. 15:37.15
14 Desean Turner 12 Warren Central 2006 NP Inv. 15:38
15 Steve Vrska Chesterton 2001 15:38
16 Brendan Smith Chesterton 1985 15:39
17 Michael Taylor 12 Portage 2000 NP Semi 15:40
18 Adam Martin 12 Chesteron 2005 NP Semi 15:42
19 Ladd Mercer 12 Northridge 2007 NP Inv. 15:44.64
20 Nick Kruse Lake Central 2000 NP Semi 15:45

[friendorunningwriter]

New Prairie keeps a list of the historical top 100 times for both boys and girls which is revised after every meet.

It is included as part of the program which is handed out to every team and sold to spectators at the Invitational.

If you are truly interested, I suggest you get ahold of one of those.

[The_Profit]

Yeah I'd be interested in seeing that, quite shocked it isn't on their official website, unless that is some big money maker for them to sell programs I'm not sure why that isn't on there. But crazy how so many recent kids are running faster than FL Finalist and State Champions.

[whitesox]

Add in:
Nick Kruse Lake Central NP Invitational 2001 15:30
Dan Allen Portage Regional 1993 15:42
Scott Maddox FW Northrop NP Invitational 1981 15:43

[preran2]

Like comparing apples to oranges...the course run today is not the same as it was in the 1980's. In addition, pack running was a major tactic 20-25 years ago, unlike today.

[The_Profit]

Add in:
Nick Kruse Lake Central NP Invitational 2001 15:30
Dan Allen Portage Regional 1993 15:42
Scott Maddox FW Northrop NP Invitational 1981 15:43

Thanks, great to have more times on Scott Maddox this is the same guy that went 14:48 on the old state course at south grove, I'm honestly thinking south grove's course was maybe just 25 seconds slower than detweiller. Makes me think it was a 3 mile course. Which is kind of cool because I actually have him ranking around 15:35 runner at New Prairie on my all time list so that made me feel pretty good about where I had him. I was a bit ignorant of Nick Kruse that is a solid time on that course it appears his state meet performances may not reflect that type of time by him, may need to do a little homework on him. Dan Allen's pretty quick time makes me want to take a 2nd look at the 93 Carmel and Portage teams. Those teams were great but a lot of their teams on courses throughout the season doesn't reflect that as much. Anyone have Portage 93 New Prairie times? Man I told myself this year not to geek out on XC and eh starting to get the bug again.

[DACFan93]

This is the Top 20 from the NP book that the coaches received Saturday

Fout, La Porte, 15:13 NP Invite
Martin, FW Carroll, 15:20 NP Invite
Hess, FW Carroll, 15:26 NP Invite
Casiano, Portage, 15:29 NP Invite
Kruse, Lake Central, 15:30 NP Invite
Osborn, Chesterton, 15:30 NP Invite
Overway, Logansport, 15:31 Semi-State
McClaren, New Prairie, 15:32 Sectional
Williams, Horace Mann, 15:37 NP Invite
Smoot, Horace Mann, 15:37 NP Invite
Dye, Elk. Memorial, 15:37 NP Invite
Aljobeh, Valparaiso, 15:37 NP Invite
Vrska, Chesterton, 15:38 NP Invite
Smith, Chesterton, 15:39 NP Invite
Turner, Warren Central, 15:39 NP Invite
Taylor, Portage, 15:40 Semi-State
Allen, Portage, 15:42 Regional
Maddox, FW Northdrop, 15:43 NP Invite
Martin, Chesterton, 15:43 Semi-State
Hicks, Warsaw, 15:44 NP Invite

[The_Profit]

Like comparing apples to oranges...the course run today is not the same as it was in the 1980's. In addition, pack running was a major tactic 20-25 years ago, unlike today.

Did they pack run during track season too? Because that's like comparing oranges to oranges or at least like oranges to clementines. I'd be curious what the times would be like if a lot of the Indy schools still came up to the meet the last few years.

[4SStar4sstar]

Like comparing apples to oranges...the course run today is not the same as it was in the 1980's. In addition, pack running was a major tactic 20-25 years ago, unlike today.

Did they pack run during track season too? Because that's like comparing oranges to oranges or at least like oranges to clementines. I'd be curious what the times would be like if a lot of the Indy schools still came up to the meet the last few years.

Wish they still did...then it truly would be the greatest meet in the midwest and not just a big one.

-4sstar

[DAC]

I for one wish they would bring back agony hill. Running up grass instead of sand has surely sped this course up the last 2 years. I would guess the conversion to be about 15 seconds give or take 5.

[runrman]

Agony Hill is still there, it just isn't the sandy mess that it used to be. It is still a tough hill. Many people wish it was back to the way it used to be, but what they don't realize is the hours and hours of time workers had to put in just to make sure that the hill was passable. Every year, rain would wash away more and more of the hill making it harder to keep up. I don't think it speeds up the course that much. Definitely not 15 seconds

[DAC]

My comment was in no way a knock on the great staff at NP. It was simply an opinion based on watching the invite and state tournament series over the last decade or so. I know why the sand isn't there, but that does not change that one of the best parts of the course was always the climb up the sandy hill. There are still the great starting straight away, the hairpin turn, the woods, the snake, more woods, and the long finishing straight that still make it an exceptional, if not the best, course in Indiana. We can agree to disagree about the 15 seconds, but I stick by that estimate. That climb took a lot out of runners in addition to being tough to get up.

[the_rooster]

When I Asst. Coached NP, I would take my PE classes out to Agony Hill and have them pass 5-gallan buckets of sand up the hill and all thru snake for the entire week before the Invite and throughout the post season. The sand wasn't there by accident. Doug Snyder and Thom Smith would just shake their heads and laugh at all the sand.

[The_Profit]

Interesting story about the sand there. I would say the greatest invite in the midwest would be the bigger Peoria Invite in Illinois every year. Traditional meet, traditional course, very fast teams. But I will say although I've never been to New Prairie before it seems by the way they act and from what I've seen of the course that that place is what cross country is made of.

[indianaxc]

yeah, we should remember fout's 15:13 was in the sand. haha the snake and agony hill were a beach my freshman to senior year. i've been back to np a few times and the sand back there today isn't nearly what it was a few years ago. some rain slows down np a lot!

[The_Profit]

I know there was one slight course change from when Casiano ran it and when Fout ran it. Then the sand issue, which is a valid issue. Any other major changes to the course throughout the year that could change how fast it is, other than the weather?

[regionchamp]

The course I ran in 1985 was very diferent to the course being run today and the last 18-19 years. The ravine and Agony hill are also different in that the sand was very much a factor also. But as time marches on runners get better and thats why I'm down on the list. I did hold the course record for 3 years and then someone better broke it. Thats the nature of history in distance running....times get faster.

[NickKruse2002]

Add in:
Nick Kruse Lake Central NP Invitational 2001 15:30
Dan Allen Portage Regional 1993 15:42
Scott Maddox FW Northrop NP Invitational 1981 15:43

Thanks, great to have more times on Scott Maddox this is the same guy that went 14:48 on the old state course at south grove, I'm honestly thinking south grove's course was maybe just 25 seconds slower than detweiller. Makes me think it was a 3 mile course. Which is kind of cool because I actually have him ranking around 15:35 runner at New Prairie on my all time list so that made me feel pretty good about where I had him. I was a bit ignorant of Nick Kruse that is a solid time on that course it appears his state meet performances may not reflect that type of time by him, may need to do a little homework on him. Dan Allen's pretty quick time makes me want to take a 2nd look at the 93 Carmel and Portage teams. Those teams were great but a lot of their teams on courses throughout the season doesn't reflect that as much. Anyone have Portage 93 New Prairie times? Man I told myself this year not to geek out on XC and eh starting to get the bug again.

Its nice to see your name come up over 10 years after. Thanks for putting this together. It brings back some great memories. I'm more than willing to be very honest about anything you'd like to know.

I will add this. This race, although not my fastest, was the best race of my highschool career. I didnt feel like I even ran that day. I had a few people tell me they saw Jason Casiano and shake my hand after that race.

And from someone who doesnt follow running anymore, I'm very disappointed to hear about agony hill. What a shame.

[Nick_Arndt_NPCCNICKtheQUIK]

Agony hill is still there. there is still sand but it's a harder packed sand with winter wheat growing on the hill. Coach and the np crew planted the wheat so it would prevent erosion from the rain. The rain washed out the sand down into the ravine and snake canyon every year and it took hours upon hours to fix the course. That's why they planted wheat hence the slight faster times but it's still a dog of a hill.

[iwearperushortshorts]

Agony hill is still there. there is still sand but it's a harder packed sand with winter wheat growing on the hill. Coach and the np crew planted the wheat so it would prevent erosion from the rain. The rain washed out the sand down into the ravine and snake canyon every year and it took hours upon hours to fix the course. That's why they planted wheat hence the slight faster times but it's still a dog of a hill.

Yes the hill is still there, yes it's still a difficult challenge but its nothing even close to the same as it was several years ago. The course is not the same without a loose sandy agony hill.

[run4life]

Another factor often overlooked on the old course was the 4 90 degree turns and a 180 degree turn in the first 800m of the race. The start was often an incredible mess (and fun). There were 2 more 90 degree turns before the mile mark too. All of that would slow the course down, not significantly, but a noticeable amount. There also was a (sometimes) nasty gravel road you would run for about 600m on twice during the race: once before going into the ravine and once in the last k of the race.

Just a couple more changes not often considered. The NP Invite is an incredible event, and they have always done a great job.

Tom Taylor 16:09 1996 (In the snow, back when it still snowed during XC)

[runrman]

Another factor often overlooked on the old course was the 4 90 degree turns and a 180 degree turn in the first 800m of the race. The start was often an incredible mess (and fun). There were 2 more 90 degree turns before the mile mark too. All of that would slow the course down, not significantly, but a noticeable amount. There also was a (sometimes) nasty gravel road you would run for about 600m on twice during the race: once before going into the ravine and once in the last k of the race.

Just a couple more changes not often considered. The NP Invite is an incredible event, and they have always done a great job.

Tom Taylor 16:09 1996 (In the snow, back when it still snowed during XC)

If anybody was running on that gravel road, which is where many of the busses park now, then they were too far off to the side of the actual course. There was plenty of grass area between the gravel road and the athletic fields to run on. I ran the NP course probably 5 - 8 times a season for four years and NEVER had to run on the gravel road.