IndianaRunner

[4SStar4sstar]

So here we are, a few weeks after I was smugly told a small school would never have the opportunity to crack the top 10 at State because there was just TOO MUCH competition to allow it. I believe I was told that an average of 16:40 or 16:50 would never be top 10 at State. I really wish I could have bookmarked that thread or something....

Here are some facts and a little opinion...

I don't care what you say about "conditions" because everyone runs the same conditions on any given day, which I agreed upon. I also said that is superfluous.

TOP 10 TEAAMS

1 - Columbus North Points: 63
42 Diehn,Andrew (10) 16:23 5:16 8
47 Scruton,Evan (12) 16:37 5:21 12
44 Kelsey,Christopher (10) 16:40 5:22 13
41 Brooks,Corbin (12) 16:41 5:22 14
45 Ocasio,Gabe (11) 16:49 5:25 16
39 Beiriger,Andrew (11) 16:56 5:27 20
48 Sublette,Michael (10) 18:10 5:51 121

2 - Chesterton Points: 131
33 Osborn,David (12) 16:06 5:11 3
31 Morris,Andrew (11) 17:07 5:31 27
29 Kenney,Shane (12) 17:09 5:31 29
26 Cutter,Ryan (11) 17:13 5:32 32
35 Rogers,Jon (12) 17:16 5:33 40
32 Orlich,Manny (11) 17:50 5:44 89
27 Halpin,Thomas (11) 18:15 5:52 125

3 - North Central (Indianapolis) Points: 189
192 Zeinasellassie,Futsum (10) 15:51 5:06 1
186 Geshay,Connor (12) 16:28 5:18 9
182 Adhanom,Filimon (11) 16:51 5:25 17
185 Fox,Matthew (10) 17:36 5:40 68
191 Turner,Corey (9) 17:54 5:46 94
184 Burris,Jared (11) 18:04 5:49 112
190 Toumey,Julian (12) 18:36 5:59 145

4 - Carmel Points: 203
23 Walden,Chris (11) 16:01 5:09 2
19 Ohlman,Tom (12) 16:20 5:15 7
20 Porter,Dan (12) 17:11 5:32 31
18 Kinn,Eric (10) 17:26 5:37 53
22 Shaw,Jason (12) 18:02 5:48 110
17 Gomez,Steven (12) 18:27 5:56 139
15 Brunk,Griffin (12) 19:33 6:18 166

5 - North Harrison Points: 212
194 Byrne,Tyler (12) 16:14 5:13 4
196 Foster,Ryan (10) 16:58 5:28 21
197 Guy,Johnnie (10) 17:10 5:32 30
201 Reynolds,Jonathan (9) 17:16 5:33 39
198 Guy,Josh (10) 18:08 5:50 118
193 Book,Peter (12) 19:27 6:16 164
200 Morgan,Cody (10) 19:46 6:22 168

OHH wait..I don't need 10 because it seems to me that even the 5th team at State has a runner at 18:08. Now I wouldn't choose to make a big deal of this, but I was told it WOULD NEVER happen...that it wasn't possible because the State of IND has just gotten SO fast. I got a good kick out of it, no big deal. Just wanted to let everyone know that running is run Saturday to Saturday and not by history or a supposed progression of overall "state speed," because that is just dumb. This State meet clearly proves my point. That a small school COULD eek into the top 10..heck, top 5.

back to watching the NYC Marathon..

-4SStar <><

[Prefonbain]

tough case considering the course ran about a minute slow for the guys finishing around the 17:00 mark, and probably :45-:50 slow for the guys up front.

[Jones]

18 minutes is a BIG deal for many small school runners. Look at the top times lists that Road Runner has put together.

1A BOYS
15:33 - Josh Genet - 11 - Northeast Dubois - 1A - Princeton Invite - 9/15 - BC
16:01 - Jamie Dority - 10 - Clinton Prairie - 1A - Harrison (West Lafayette) Sectional - 10/13 - NP
16:09 - Drew Gambill - 12 - Shakamak - 1A - Washington Invite - 9/12 - BC
16:10 - Jake Carden - 12 - Kouts - 1A - New Prairie Regional - 10/17 - NP
16:18 - Ryan Bice - 12 - Pioneer - 1A - Logansport Sectional - 10/13 - NP
16:28 - Hunter Williams - 11 - Borden - 1A - North Harrison Invite - 9/3 - BC
16:30 - Connor Sorrells - 9 - Barr-Reeve - 1A - Washington Invite - 9/12 - BC
16:32 - Wes Delks - 12 - Rossville - 1A - Tipton Invite - 9/19 - NP
16:36 - Nathan Westfall - 11 - Vincennes Rivet - 1A - Pike Central Regional - 10/17 - BC
16:52 - Geoff Taylor - 12 - Barr-Reeve - 1A - Washington Invite - 9/12 - BC
16:54 - Cole Hruskovich - 12 - Lafayette Central Catholic - 1A - Harrison (West Lafayette) Sectional - 10/13 - NP
16:54 - Kyle Lachmund - 12 - North White - 1A - Midwest Conference - 10/8 - NP
16:55 - Cody Feuquay - 11 - West Central - 1A - Midwest Conference - 10/8 - NP
16:57 - Emerson Flohr - 12 - Rossville - 1A - Harrison (West Lafayette) Regional - 10/17 - NP
17:01 - Trey Thomas - 12 - Monroe Central - 1A - Delta Sectional - 10/13 - NH
17:07 - Colin Vieke - 9 - Vincennes Rivet - 1A - Pike Central Regional - 10/17 - BC
17:09 - Jacob Phegley - 12 - Union (Dugger) - 1A - Tri-River Conference - 9/29 - BC
17:11 - Parker Modesitt - 11 - Clay City - 1A - Tri-River Conference - 9/29 - BC
17:12 - Blake Lemler - 11 - Triton - 1A - Tippecanoe Valley Invite - 9/12 - NP
17:16 - Curtis Nordmann - 12 - Triton - 1A - Triangular - 9/22 - NP
17:21 - Allen Bridgeman - 9 - Monroe Central - 1A - Delta Regional - 10/17 - NH
17:24 - Adam Schrock - 11 - Clinton Prairie - 1A - Harrison (West Lafayette) Sectional - 10/13 - NP
17:24 - Jesse Vansickle - 11 - Clay City - 1A - Tri-River Conference - 9/29 - BC
17:29 - Jake Keough - 11 - Kouts - 1A - New Prairie Regional - 10/17 - NP
17:29 - Ian Rider - 10 - Rossville - 1A - Harrison (West Lafayette) Regional - 10/17 - NP

Only TWENTY five 1A runners broke 17:30. I am not saying that it is impossible, but very difficult.

And I no don't consider North Harrison a small school by any means. Compared to some of the big dogs? Yes. But they have over 700 students and are ranked 157th of 320 schools which is top half.

I know that you coach at a school and believe that you also attended that a SMALL school, so I know where your loyalties lie. Medium schools can have a great amount of team success in this sport. Small schools, like Perry Central and Tri-County can even achieve the ultimate dream of making a run towards state but a lot has to go right if a 1A school is going to get on the podium.

But the great thing about this sport is that you can achieve individual success no matter what your school size.

[Larsmgxc08]

Oak Hill is a 2A school and didn't they finish in the top 10 a couple years ago?

[4SStar4sstar]

I never said N. Harrison was small. I stopped at 5 because the point was that the average time among top 10! schools was said that it wouldn't be that slow.

For the last time...STOP using course conditions as a rationalization. I realize it slows people down. But did anyone ever consider that some runners are actually stronger when the ground is softer? Aside from the wind on the stretch...that kind of runner would not have been affected at all.

-4SStar <><

[whitesox]

No one runs faster because of the conditions; some people just slow down a little less than others.

So yes, course conditions from Saturday do slow times.

[Prefonbain]

I never said N. Harrison was small. I stopped at 5 because the point was that the average time among top 10! schools was said that it wouldn't be that slow.

For the last time...STOP using course conditions as a rationalization. I realize it slows people down. But did anyone ever consider that some runners are actually stronger when the ground is softer? Aside from the wind on the stretch...that kind of runner would not have been affected at all.

-4SStar <><

Are you trying to say that if no wind was blowing... some guys would run faster on that course than it being in good condition? Did you go to the state meet and see that course?

[Run_4_Life]

4SStar you need to seriously reconsider. Did you honestly just say that course conditions did not slow people down??? Was there a single PR in that race? It was state so everyone is going to be running their hardest. If the course wasn't tremendously slow then at least someone would have Pr'ed in the most important race of the season. Trust me, LG yesterday was outrageously slow.

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

[Prefonbain]

4SStar you need to seriously reconsider. Did you honestly just say that course conditions did not slow people down??? Was there a single PR in that race? It was state so everyone is going to be running their hardest. If the course wasn't tremendously slow then at least someone would have Pr'ed in the most important race of the season. Trust me, LG yesterday was outrageously slow.

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

I understand that, but this conversation started based on times that could end up on the podium.

[Colin]

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

I'm confused as to what "stronger" means in this case. You aren't saying that better runners are going to run faster, are you?

[Run_4_Life]

4SStar you need to seriously reconsider. Did you honestly just say that course conditions did not slow people down??? Was there a single PR in that race? It was state so everyone is going to be running their hardest. If the course wasn't tremendously slow then at least someone would have Pr'ed in the most important race of the season. Trust me, LG yesterday was outrageously slow.

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

I understand that, but this conversation started based on times that could end up on the podium.

Yes true. I remember the argument or whatever you'd like to call it that was said about that subject. 4SStar said that if he had a team with 3 16:00s and 2-3 17:00s then he could be a podium team or get top 5 or something like that. He was then told there was no way his team could have gotten top 10. He said ANY conditions, because on any day anyone can perform to a certain extent. I believe his theoretical team's average was 16:40. His team would have for sure gotten top 5 yesterday if they had run that average. Everyone says but wait wait, the course was slow etc. So I'll do some conversions.
Lets say the course was about 30 seconds "slow," Futsum would have run 15:20 which is a pretty good winning time, especially since he gapped himself from the field after the first mile.

North Harrison, 5th
Byrne - 15:45
Foster - 16:28
Guy - 16:40
Reynolds - 16:46
Guy - 17:38

That would give this team a converted average of 16:39, so right there with his imaginary small-school team.

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

I'm confused as to what "stronger" means in this case. You aren't saying that better runners are going to run faster, are you?

By Stronger I meant... stronger, as in more muscular. If you think about it, it makes sense, a runner with a stronger core and legs will be able to push off better etc.

[4SStar4sstar]

4SStar you need to seriously reconsider. Did you honestly just say that course conditions did not slow people down??? Was there a single PR in that race? It was state so everyone is going to be running their hardest. If the course wasn't tremendously slow then at least someone would have Pr'ed in the most important race of the season. Trust me, LG yesterday was outrageously slow.

I think what he maybe meant was that some guys can run STRONGER in those conditions than others. People with stronger bodies can power through the mud and bad conditions better than others. A weaker runner will have a tougher time in those conditions. So on that day, the runners who were stronger were better prepared to run the race.

I understand that, but this conversation started based on times that could end up on the podium.

Yo Bain, I was most certainly there. I was standing by the finish line. I know what the course was like. I happen to know what I'm talking about when I say that if you are a strong runner in mud and soupy conditions...you'll most definitely beat more people if that is the course conditions on the given day. If a 15:45 runner runs against a 16:00 runner on a course like that...YESSS the 16 flat runner CAN beat the 15:45 runner if the 15:45 runner isn't strong in the mud and soupy conditions.

You misunderstood what I said.

Colin, congrats on the two championships.


-4SStar <><

[Prefonbain]

[quote="Run_4_Life"]Yes true. I remember the argument or whatever you'd like to call it that was said about that subject. 4SStar said that if he had a team with 3 16:00s and 2-3 17:00s then he could be a podium team or get top 5 or something like that. He was then told there was no way his team could have gotten top 10. He said ANY conditions, because on any day anyone can perform to a certain extent. I believe his theoretical team's average was 16:40. His team would have for sure gotten top 5 yesterday if they had run that average. Everyone says but wait wait, the course was slow etc. So I'll do some conversions.
Lets say the course was about 30 seconds "slow," Futsum would have run 15:20 which is a pretty good winning time, especially since he gapped himself from the field after the first mile.

North Harrison, 5th
Byrne - 15:45
Foster - 16:28
Guy - 16:40
Reynolds - 16:46
Guy - 17:38

That would give this team a converted average of 16:39, so right there with his imaginary small-school team.

[quote="Run_4_Life"]

Ok... well in that I see 1 15:00, 3 16:00s, and 1 17:00.

I guess if you really want to use the extremely slow conditions in favor of his arguement you can. But let's be real, Byrne is a low 15 guy, Foster, guy and Reynolds are 16:10-:20 guys probably and Guy is a mid 17 guy. Much different build than 3 16s and 2 17 guys.

Just to use my own team in comparison... we were a team built of 4 guys who were often 16:10-16:25 range, and another 2 guys at 16:35-:45 range.

[4SStar4sstar]

Yes true. I remember the argument or whatever you'd like to call it that was said about that subject. 4SStar said that if he had a team with 3 16:00s and 2-3 17:00s then he could be a podium team or get top 5 or something like that. He was then told there was no way his team could have gotten top 10. He said ANY conditions, because on any day anyone can perform to a certain extent. I believe his theoretical team's average was 16:40. His team would have for sure gotten top 5 yesterday if they had run that average. Everyone says but wait wait, the course was slow etc. So I'll do some conversions.
Lets say the course was about 30 seconds "slow," Futsum would have run 15:20 which is a pretty good winning time, especially since he gapped himself from the field after the first mile.

North Harrison, 5th
Byrne - 15:45
Foster - 16:28
Guy - 16:40
Reynolds - 16:46
Guy - 17:38

That would give this team a converted average of 16:39, so right there with his imaginary small-school team.

Ok... well in that I see 1 15:00, 3 16:00s, and 1 17:00.

I guess if you really want to use the extremely slow conditions in favor of his arguement you can. But let's be real, Byrne is a low 15 guy, Foster, guy and Reynolds are 16:10-:20 guys probably and Guy is a mid 17 guy. Much different build than 3 16s and 2 17 guys.

Just to use my own team in comparison... we were a team built of 4 guys who were often 16:10-16:25 range, and another 2 guys at 16:35-:45 range.

twisting what I said again...never said N. Harrison was small...you are stillllllll screwing this thread up. I was told that a team couldn't average 16:50s or so and be top 10. Looks to me like some of these top teams had scoring guys in the 18s. Don't get it twisted.

-4SStar <><

[Run_4_Life]

Ok... well in that I see 1 15:00, 3 16:00s, and 1 17:00.

I guess if you really want to use the extremely slow conditions in favor of his arguement you can. But let's be real, Byrne is a low 15 guy, Foster, guy and Reynolds are 16:10-:20 guys probably and Guy is a mid 17 guy. Much different build than 3 16s and 2 17 guys.

Just to use my own team in comparison... we were a team built of 4 guys who were often 16:10-16:25 range, and another 2 guys at 16:35-:45 range.

Bryne was a low 15:00s guy once. He was also said by many sources to be sick.
Terre Haute North beat North Harrison a weak ago at Semi-State. Its all about capitalizing on the day, and running your best.

Btw, Congrats to your team for a 7th placed finish.

[Prefonbain]

Btw, Congrats to your team for a 7th placed finish.

Thanks, it was a fun season for us and a great experience for the Zionsville program to get to the state meet.

[4SStar4sstar]

4SStar you're argument is completely invalid, as Bain has already pointed out North Harrison was not a team with three 16 minute guys and 2 17 minute guys. Byrne was a low 15's guy, Reynolds, Foster, and Johnnie Guy were low to mid 16 minute guys, and Josh Guy was a 17:30 guy. That team was not remotely comparable to a team that you are imagining.

Anyway, I'm done arguing now and would like to say congratulations to North Harrison for finishing on the podium. It's pretty sweet.

Quote me, where did I say that? I never did. Run_4_Life did. I said a team averaging 16:50...IN THE TOP 10. c'mon.

-4SStar <><

[WarriorXC09]

1. the course was terrible
2. Great job North Harrison (one of my only predictions that worked out, those results were CRAZY!!!)
3. Everyone ran pretty slow times (in my opinion of course)
4. a number of top contenders were sick, hurting, etc.
5. smaller schools CAN break the top 10
6. some runners handle adversity ex. "course conditions" better than others and it showed, practically no one that I talked to or saw predictions from, including myself, thought Chris Walden would get 2nd or Brad Hess to get top 15), and that James martin would get 10th or that Terre Haute North would get 10th.

[Colin]

By Stronger I meant... stronger, as in more muscular. If you think about it, it makes sense, a runner with a stronger core and legs will be able to push off better etc.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Tapring Goatee, who won the girls race, doesn't exactly resemble Schwarzanegger.

I think the nasty conditions favor those with better endurance and in better aerobic shape.

[Run_4_Life]

By Stronger I meant... stronger, as in more muscular. If you think about it, it makes sense, a runner with a stronger core and legs will be able to push off better etc.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Tapring Goatee, who won the girls race, doesn't exactly resemble Schwarzanegger.

I think the nasty conditions favor those with better endurance and in better aerobic shape.

She doesn't count, she had home field advantage :p

[morganxc]

Congratulations to North Harrison---- job well done!!

Nothing against North Harrison, they had a great CC season, in regards to them being a small school-- The last time I checked (and I just checked) they are a 3A school. Before you get on your soap box about a small school making the top 10--- a 3A school in Indiana is NOT a small school.

[Run_4_Life]

Congratulations to North Harrison---- job well done!!

Nothing against North Harrison, they had a great CC season, in regards to them being a small school-- The last time I checked (and I just checked) they are a 3A school. Before you get on your soap box about a small school making the top 10--- a 3A school in Indiana is NOT a small school.

He never said they were a small school. He said that a small school could make top 10 in the state. Previously he said a team with an average of 16:40 could make top top 5 in the state, and someone said that they wouldnt make top 10 this year. He showed the top 5 teams, to prove a team with an average of 16:40 on saturday could have been top 5.

[morganxc]

He said this :

"This State meet clearly proves my point. That a small school COULD eek into the top 10..heck, top 5."

Maybe that is not what he meant--- but that is what he said.

[Run_4_Life]

He said this :

"This State meet clearly proves my point. That a small school COULD eek into the top 10..heck, top 5."

Maybe that is not what he meant--- but that is what he said.

Yes, he said that because of his previous point. That point was made in another thread. Maybe you didn't read that point but it was discussed in my last post. He was using North Harrison as the "small schooul that COULD eek into the top 10," he never mentioned North Harrison, except in his proof that a team with an average of 16:40 would have been top 5.

[CoachG]

Since the phrase small school has been thrown around a lot in this thread, thought I would drop a few comments since I help coach at Perry Central. First off, congrats to all the teams and individuals but especially North Harrison and Josh Genet for representing the extreme southern part of the state.
A post was made earlier this year about a class system for cross and I stated how that would be the worst thing for our sport. Case in point this year. Yes North Harrison is a 3A school and ranks in the middle of enrollment for all Indiana schools, but if there were a class tournament, which race would they have competed. When we (PC coaches) made our state predictions we had North Harrison at 3rd and if they had not had an off day, that spot was very possible. If there was a class race and they fit in the smaller one, would they have been happy with a first place in that one or a 5th place (podium worthy) with the big boys?
Now from a true small school standpoint, we were extremely honored and glad to be in the state meet, however, we were very disappointed with a 22nd finish. We honestly thought we could crack the top 15 and if everyone PRed, as high as 10th. I know some of you might laugh, but we had the best 1-7 spilt at sloppy Brown County, better than North Harrison and Terre Haute North. If we had run like that Saturday, I know we would have been in the top 15th, but unfortunately like a lot of other teams, Saturday was not a good day for times. We are still questioning why because our regional and semi-state had worse conditions then the state.
Getting to my overall point: keep the state meet the same, no classes. We should have done better this year and didn't. We prepare our guys throughout the year by running in some big meets up in the central part of the state, so we were not scared by the enormity of the state meet. Our guys worked hard Saturday but it just didn't get us were we hoped. I say these things now, because it would have been harder for me to have said this earlier in the year when the orginial thread was started, because we had not made state yet. Small schools can hold their own if given a chance, I just wish we could have done what we should have to further back up my point.