IndianaRunner

[thurgood-marshall]

Sorry for not putting decimal point after the mile. IU has 3 guys who have gone 4:00.90 or faster (which is still faster by more then 3 seconds then anyone from Wabash, USI and IW

[KaptnKrunch]

There it is, as i implied (apparently not specifically enough), IU is the best collegiate program right now. More specifically, if they lined up against any other collegiate team right now, they would win.

Secondly, I'm not in HS either so it seems, in fact, there is a thing that TheChasePack does not know. Wait, you also have no idea on Futsum's current situation or you wouldn't have brought up NAU. NAU is not a problem based on the quality of the program, it is a problem due to Futsum's personal preferences. Guess im more in the know than you. Just an aside, quit name dropping people like you know shit about Indiana running. Based on what you posted, you research a lot and peruse these boards but do little talking to coaches/athletes.

Just a quick point. Thurgood's post is written/spoken language, not math. If someone is 21 years and 2 days old, how old do you say they are? 21 years old or 21.00547945205 years old?

Lastly, you made no point with your banter. It was evident what my post meant, thurgood's post was cogent too. You should become a bit more cognizant of the world around you and, as a post HS runner, quit hiding behind a screen name acting as if you know everything. I have a hunch you relive your subpar running career vicariously through TheChasePack. Care to post PRs? I would be willing to follow suit

[Drake]

I love the debate but lets keep the personal shots out of it guys...careful

[logic_porter]

Christopher Kelsey of Columbus North to the Butler Bulldogs

[Sir_Runs_Alot]

I am not bashing their program, I have met many of their runners and they are all good ppl. Only thing I said was about their coachs. And if you know he visited IU 3 times than you most certainly know someone connected with running in the Terre Haute area. So like I said ask ANYONE its no secret. Don't take my word for it. I just thought I would let ppl know whats going on. I hope Mundy makes the decision thats best for him and if its IU than thats fine with me as long as its his decision is all im getting at not his coaches.

To be honest, im not all that familiar with the THN program. However, i do know they are a perennial powerhouse in cross country and advance many runners to the collegiate level which is more than most teams/coaches in the state can claim. Im not sure their top runners choosing IU has anything to do with the coaching staff. It is hardly indiscernible that IU is the best distance program in the state. Mayhew has been successful there and Mascari was as well, unfortunately he had no other choice. Why is it wrong for mundy to choose a school that offers the best training environment in the state and has/had two of his former teammates? I feel IU makes more sense than any other in state school

You are not sure that their coaching staff influences them negatively but I am. Like I said I have nooo problem with Mundy or Mascari choosing IU but if they are gonna do it before they visit any other schools its ridiculous and quite frankly dumb. What if they visited oklahoma st. or Colorado or Wisconsin and they gave them scholarship money? All of those schools are better than IU yr in and yr out, yea that might be too much to ask for them to get scholarship money to those schools but thats what visits are for. Mascari realized it was a mistake and transferred because he had pressure from his coaches to not drive 5 minutes down the street to visit ISU in the first place. And sounds to me like he is loving it there right now. That being said I dont mean to call people out like that but it is pretty obvious what was going on and it bugs me that coaches are having a negative impact on kids to explore their options like that. Same goes for the kids who take one visit and commit to anyplace that is just stupid.

[WarriorXC09]

There it is, as i implied (apparently not specifically enough), IU is the best collegiate program right now. More specifically, if they lined up against any other collegiate team right now, they would win.

this is right.

Now for the statement. That is completely different than what you originally said and I do agree with that statement. The point I am trying to make is that there are other very quality college distance programs in the State

this is also right, their are other quality programs in Indiana, but they would lose to IU, which also means that IU is THE BEST DISTANCE PROGRAM IN INDIANA

as far as I'm concerned chasepack, you have completely and utterly failed to prove there is a collegiate team in Indiana better than IU. Once again, your arguments are pointless and taking cheap shots doesn't make you look any better, honestly, I am not surprised in the least.

[TheChasePack]

There it is, as i implied (apparently not specifically enough), IU is the best collegiate program right now. More specifically, if they lined up against any other collegiate team right now, they would win.

This is probably just differences in opinions for us. In my opinion better program is not the same as who would win if they raced today. I think the Colts Football program is one of the best programs in the NFL despite their 2-14 record this year. What teams do off the course comes into play along with their ability to sustain success among many other variable in determining the best college program. I tend to be a long term thinker and as a result I do not look at arguments that only include the past 2-3 years very well.

Secondly, I'm not in HS either so it seems, in fact, there is a thing that TheChasePack does not know. Wait, you also have no idea on Futsum's current situation or you wouldn't have brought up NAU. NAU is not a problem based on the quality of the program, it is a problem due to Futsum's personal preferences. Guess im more in the know than you. Just an aside, quit name dropping people like you know shit about Indiana running. Based on what you posted, you research a lot and peruse these boards but do little talking to coaches/athletes.

Then why would you attack me for not being in high school? If you took the time to look at my past posts you would notice a couple things. 1. Most of my posts in the last year have been about training or college which are two things I am involved in. I do not have association to high school anymore and I do not have many posts about high school. I was under the impression that these board now include more than just high school cross country, i.e. a thread about college recruiting. 2. I am a lot lot closer to the IU program than you could imagine. I have never bashed a single IU athlete. I have disagreed with Helmer on things but I tell everybody about those disagreements. I am critical of my own training and program as well. You will never know where you need to improve if nobody tells you their true opinions.

As for Futsum I am not in the know. I was referring to others posts. That is why I said "often mentioned" and not that I know he has even thought about going there. I was also referring to somebody who claimed that IU was the best place for him if he wants to win nationals and I disagree with that one statement based entirely on historical performances IF NAU is in the running. Would you argue that IU has a better record of producing top 5 runners over the past 5 years than NAU? Diego just beat a bunch of IU guys the other day.

Is there anything wrong with researching a sport I am passionate about? I believe that the best coaches are passionate and spend time researching. Are you insulting Coach Mcnulty for putting together Indiana Best? Do you think The Profit is wasting his time putting together all those predictions? Is Road Runner hurting the sport by researching the best times in the state? I do spend time talking to coaches and athletes. There are coaches I think the world of and there are coaches I disagree with. I have hung out with the Invaders and gone on long runs with running groups of former greats rehashing their high school days. And as I previously mentioned I am closer to the IU program than you know.

Just a quick point. Thurgood's post is written/spoken language, not math. If someone is 21 years and 2 days old, how old do you say they are? 21 years old or 21.00547945205 years old?

Then he shouldn't attack me for not posting facts and then exaggerate facts. Spoken language and statistically accurate facts are two different things. If he would have said 3 guys who are around 4 minutes I would have been okay with it because it does not imply that they broke 4. When you say equal to or greater that is a very specific mathematical term that was simply not true. And he was implying something that was not true. If I tell you about a cross country team had 5 guys who were 16 or faster you would not think that my cross country team had 5 guys between 16:50 and 16:59.

Lastly, you made no point with your banter. It was evident what my post meant, thurgood's post was cogent too. You should become a bit more cognizant of the world around you and, as a post HS runner, quit hiding behind a screen name acting as if you know everything. I have a hunch you relive your subpar running career vicariously through TheChasePack. Care to post PRs? I would be willing to follow suit

I don't think PR's matter to what somebody posts. If you really want to know I would say I'm a slightly above average runner. Sub 16, sub 27, sub 4:10, If you really want to know who I am you can do research. I have never hidden my identity on this site. I seem to remember Colin calling me out once by name (I have hung out with him on occasion in his college days). I know I have posted my PR's in the past. I believe research skills are good to have so you can figure it out. You can tell me who you are but I don't really care. Who you are does not make any difference to who is right in the conversation.

I love the debate but lets keep the personal shots out of it guys...careful

I want to apologize to the IUPUI program. That remark was uncalled for. I am jealous of how good of a recruiting class they have put together these past two years. IUPUI is a team I often find myself rooting for. I firmly believe that by the time the current recruiting class graduates they will be giving IU all they can handle.

In response to USI, Wabash and IW. There fine programs for their respected divisions but your telling me that if your A 15:00 high school kid that you think Wabash will get you faster then IU????? Really? No knock on Wabash there a fine D3 school but come on now.

Wabash, USI, and IWU have coaching staffs that are just as good as any DI team in the country. Robert Johnson is an Olympic Coach and rightly so, Mike Hilliard is responsible for probably the greatest High School to college improvement I have ever heard of along with an extremely long list of impressive runners(David Goodman never broke 18 in high school and has a PR in the steeple 9 seconds slower than Turners), and John Foss and the gang have been a part of some very impressive runners (I know Coach Coy coached a guy with a faster 1500 PR than Bayer while he was at Taylor). Helmer can take a 15:00 guy and turn him into a 8:39 steepler (Turner) or a 29:32 10K guy but Hilliard can take a 18:00 Minute guy and turn him into a 8:48 Steepler (Goodman) or a 9:40 guy and turn him into a 28:41 10K guy (Emerick). Now do I think that any of these guys are a better coaches then Helmer? maybe yes or maybe no. But do I think they have done enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Helmer? There is not a doubt in my mind and it is insulting to a couple legends of Indiana coaching to say otherwise.

You say you don't count the 800 as distance yet IU has nobody on their roster that hasn't been an All-American in the 800 indoors or outdoors so what you said about the 800 is just irrelevant.

Holahan and Stockberger were both All-Americans in the DMR running distances shorter than 1500 (800 and 1200). And I get accused of knowing nothing about the program?

When was the last time Wabash, USI and IW had a pro runner? Name one please that will or has had as much post college success as Bayer or Poore.

Jesser Davis Qualified for the Trials. Paul Jellema ran for Hanson-Brooks (Wagner's former team and Desiree Davila's current team) for awhile. Alissa Mckaig (Indiana Tech) got top ten at the past Trials just off the top of my head. I would say Goodman (24th best collegiate time last year in Steeple) and Emerick (14th best collegiate time last year and 9 seconds better than Poore in 10K) will have fairly successful careers post college. I don't follow Wabash or IWU alums close enough to know when their last pro runner was. I'm sure Lambert or Foss could have been signed by somebody if they wanted to pursue the career but they chose otherwise. These are all guys (and girl) who have graduated in the past 5 years.

[TheChasePack]

as far as I'm concerned chasepack, you have completely and utterly failed to prove there is a collegiate team in Indiana better than IU. Once again, your arguments are pointless and taking cheap shots doesn't make you look any better, honestly, I am not surprised in the least.

I apologize for the cheap shot at IUPUI. I actually meant to delete it but I forgot about it. If I took any other cheap shots just point them out to me. I did not mean to offend anybody. I am trying to offer an opinion that there are so many great teams in the state that people should commemorate and I'm being attacked because all people care about is IU cross country. There were many more cheap shots taken at me which I'm okay with and I do not take personally since I do not know or care who they are.

[spikes]

OH MY GOD!!!! I wish people would read the Forum Rulues! This section is about COLLEGE COMMITMENTS AND SIGNING DAYS, NOT WHICH IS THE BEST COLLEGE TEAM IN THE STATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to give a thanks to Logic_Porter for the only recent USEFUL info on Kelsey.

[KaptnKrunch]

Ill reply to TheChasePack and SirRunsAlot in this post:

SirRunsAlot- "Mascari realized it was a mistake and transferred because he had pressure from his coaches to not drive 5 minutes down the street to visit ISU in the first place."

"And sounds to me like he is loving it there right now."

The above statement is completely untrue about John's decision to transfer. John could no longer stay at IU. Most of the state and members on this board are not cognizant of why Mascari left IU. I will say no more on this subject as I am not one to publicize a kid's misdoings. Secondly, if youre relying on his fb statues and tweets to judge his happiness, he said the same things while at IU. Take it for what its worth...

TheChasePack:
I apologize for not realizing this early, but it is evident you are a coach of a non D-1 school. This explains why you are persistent in providing examples of runners who have been successful at non D-1 programs. Sure runners can rise to national (not limited to divisions, talking the US as a whole) contenders at those schools but it is not nearly as likely. When you're wabash with 30 men on your cross roster, an outlier (McCarthy) is likely to ensue. I find it humorous that you try to downplay IU's accomplishment's so that top notch recruits may think about your program. If you really cared about the runners in the state of Indiana, you'd want them to go to a school with proven success not a program with an outlier it relies heavily upon. You will get 5-star recruits when you have proven you can coach consistently, ill make that clear as day.

Secondly, I'm going to doubt you're close to the IU program.

To thurgood's post: Did Goodman run 8:48.00? Emerick went 28:41.00? GTFO of here with that point. Its not his fault you can't develop a 4 flat runner, don't undermine somebody who can.

The PR post doesn't matter anymore, it somewhat proved my assertion though. I apologize for saying you were trying to relive your subpar running career, this is untrue. I now realize that is not your intent on this message board. Rather, you are attempting to persuade, albeit implicitly, kids that your non D-1 program can get them to the level Helmer can. This may be true for 1% (likely less) of your runners, but it is a risk I would advise kids against if they are serious about running.

Best of luck to your program TheChasePack, i really do wish you success. I am not bashing non D-1 programs in the state but it is undeniably clear they do not produce the same national talent as a D-1 like IU, its a fact you're going to struggle with when recruiting until you are beating Adams State.

[TheChasePack]

Thurgood,

I am not a coach at a non-D1 School.

If you did the research I asked you would realize that I am closer to the IU program than you think. As I mentioned earlier though, it does not matter who I am.

I had the same impression as to Mascari leaving not being his choice(His former teammates do not even know the whole story so why should anybody else?).

I was asked to provide just one example of non-DI guys in Indiana who have had success close to Poore or Bayer. I produced 5 that are pretty darn close. I did not say those were the times they ran, I said they were those types of guys. You want to bring Adams State into the argument and you have a team that could have beaten IU in several of the past few years.

There is a misunderstanding with correlation and causation. I would say being a D1 runner does not cause somebody to go pro but rather a future pro runner is more likely to go to a DI school.

And a lot less than 1% of DI runners go pro in running so I don't understand your point in saying that less than 1% of non-DI get to that level? I would guess the percentage of elite high school guys who go to non-DI schools and remain elite is probably higher than the percentage of elite runners who go to DI schools and remain elite. The fact is, if you are fast now there is a higher percentage chance that you will be fast in the future. If you are fast now you are more likely to go to a DI school. Thus the reason that DI has more fast runners.

Non-DI programs do not produce the talent because they often do not get the talent. For every example of a sub 16 guy who went to a non-DI school and never got better I could give you 10 DI guys with the same situation. The fact that Wabash, IWU, USI, or several other small schools in the state are not better than IU at distance has nothing to do with the coaches ability to develop talent but rather their ability to get those athletes on a budget that is a fraction of what IU has. Better program to me means sustained success relative to your competition and the ability to make people run faster along with developing individuals in non-athletic ways. The best programs are better than everybody else who is on an equal playing field as them. Why is it unfair to compare IU to the Invaders and fair to compare IU to Wabash who has no athletic scholarship and other restrictions? There is nothing keeping the Invaders from recruiting out of high school but they don't because there are not a lot of high school runners good enough for them to recruit. Professional, DI, DII, DIII, NAIA, JUCO all have specific rules they have to abide by and they are different at every level. That is why you can not flatly say this team has faster runners so they are the better program. If a NAIA coach got 20 Kenyans a year who were in their early 30's who were sub 13 coming in but left as 13:30 guys would you consider that a program more successful than IU? No, you would call it unfair that an NAIA team can do that and DI can not and that they should recruit more instate (i.e. previous comments about ND and Butler). I know that recruiting is part of the success equation but it is not the only variable.

[thurgood-marshall]

How can you say there better compatible programs even??? USI was 7th in D2 nats, Wabash was 16th in D3 and the Indiana Invaders don't have anyone good over 800 meters? Sure there are plenty of kids who have a tremendous amount of success (and the team mentioned above are all successful in their respected divisions) but those are facts they do the same/worse in their respected divisions compared to Indiana.

[TheChasePack]

I do not think the Invaders are better than IU and I never said any of those teams were better than IU. I said they deserve to be mentioned in the same breath. They are successful Indiana teams with Indiana runners. They take more guys from nobody to all-american than IU does and when they do get somebody (Foss, Emerick) they turn them into guys who are competing for National Championships. Helmer has done a good job with good talent. Some of the guys that Hilliard has turned into DI All-American caliber guys would not have been able to walk on at IU.

[hi_jump06]

Any new news on commitments?

[Drake]

How can you say there better compatible programs even??? USI was 7th in D2 nats, Wabash was 16th in D3 and the Indiana Invaders don't have anyone good over 800 meters? Sure there are plenty of kids who have a tremendous amount of success (and the team mentioned above are all successful in their respected divisions) but those are facts they do the same/worse in their respected divisions compared to Indiana.

FWIW, we have two guys on our roster who are just as good at the 1500 as they are 800, with personal bests of 3:45 and 3:46...

[xcsoccerdad]

Nathan Kump of West Vigo to Indiana State University.

[regionrunner21]

Bowman Academy's Cornelius Strickland (Sprints) to Indiana University...

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/high-school/track-and-field/bowman-s-strickland-signs-on-at-indiana-for-track-and/article_58212ca0-02b2-506c-8aee-454d8ad552bb.html

[logic_porter]

Keigan Culler of Fremont to run for the Butler Bulldogs.

[mhillyard]

I would like to clarify something:
David Goodman did improve quite a bit while he was here with us at Southern Indiana (17:50-14:41), but he ran 8:48 under the tutelage of Jen Michel at Western State after choosing a major that was not an option for him at USI. Western has been a great fit for David. I encouraged him to go there when he decided to pursue a degree in environmental science. We are all happy for David, but I don't want to be given credit where it isn't due.
Mike Hillyard

[Flo-Rida]

I would like to clarify something:
David Goodman did improve quite a bit while he was here with us at Southern Indiana (17:50-14:41), but he ran 8:48 under the tutelage of Jen Michel at Western State after choosing a major that was not an option for him at USI. Western has been a great fit for David. I encouraged him to go there when he decided to pursue a degree in environmental science. We are all happy for David, but I don't want to be given credit where it isn't due.
Mike Hillyard

The reasons I continue to like Coach Hillyard. Class.

[regionrunner21]

Jake Baranowski (Highland) verbally commits to IUPUI

[Cash]

Marcus Neeley (Ben Davis) to Indiana State.

[drew]

WOW... I went to see who signed where and I found the I <3 IU thread. LOL So I'll add a couple facts

1. If Mundy is feeling pressure to go to IU (Like Mayhew and Mascari) it comes from a parent invloved with the boys program. Not the coaching staff itself. There is a parent who is IU alum that has had kids on the team and that has influenced his sons friends. Not in a illegal way, but in a "my friends are going to IU so I want to go to IU too" way

2. So why is it that IU has a couple good seasons and everyone forgets that Bulter and Notre Dame have been 2 of the best distance programs in the nation since the 90's. No offense, but IU is a Big Ten school, with Big Ten money and recruiting power and the often struggle to beat Indiana State most years. Good for them for what they did the past 2-3 years but Programs are decades (Wisconsin) not a single recruiting class.

3. The program debate would be a great topic, if you moved it the general topics.

[carpedi3mRelay Afficionado]

Any word on UIndy signings? They will need another great 400 runner next year.

[WabashCC]

Thurgood-Marshall, whoever you are!

If you look at improvement and development over 3-4 years, both Wabash and USI runners improve more than IU runners.