IndianaRunner

[Just_The_Facts]

Was there such a time crunch to get teams and fans out of the facility that all team scores were not announced? Some teams have to travel 4 hours so I don't think they would have minded waiting an extra minute or two to hear all 24 teams recognized rather than the top 12. After the announcement of the top 12 teams, the 13 - 24 teams were not allowed to pick up results until all the awards were completed. I personaly would have liked to hear all the results.

[Trembo3578]

I was also surprised about how strict the officials were being about clearing the course during and after the awards. 380 runners had just ran through the course during the two races. The runners warming up, coaches running the course, and spectators crossing the course had all just ran through it and tore it up, yet once the awards started, they were telling everyone that nobody could be on the course unless they went all the way up to the gravel road at like the 800 meter mark and crossed there. Do a few people standing on the course or walking across it really make that much of a difference considering what all the runners had just done to it?

The worst part was when a kid on my team asked to cross, one official said no, the kid on my team pointed out that another school was being allowed to cross a little farther up the course(not on the gravel road), and the official said, "well that team just won and they are going to take a picture with their team". The team wasn't even CN. We were eventually allowed to cross but I just don't see why they would care so much about people simply walking on the course.

[drew]

As for results... they are not released on purpose to add a little drama. The rest is just YOUR opinion.

As for the complaint about a few people on the course... The course belongs to the RUNNERS. Not the coachs... not the fans... not someone's dog that's just to much a part of the family to leave at home... NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BE ON THE COURSE DURING THE RACE PERIOD. You would not be expect to be allowed to stand on the 30 yard line during a football game just becuase the games being played on the other end. A coach did in fact convince a worker that they were allowed on the course and DID interfere with a runner from another team. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SO TOUGH ON THE FANS DURING THE RACE. If you do not understand that, that is your problem, that will NOT CHANGE. That is an IHSAA directive to protect the RUNNERS. As a fan you do not have a right to be on the course.

[Just_The_Facts]

I never stated anything about the course...great they want to keep it from getting torn up anymore since there are some BIG races coming up. My only point is why not list all teams. You say for suspense...chuckle chuckle to myself...13 - 24 are supposed to be held at suspense but all others know well before them (if it's suspense we want, maybe IR could release 5 per week like the preseason rankings)...I want to know who made the decision and why they felt that was appropriate, not another opinion / argument that follows every post someone makes. Heck, if I stated that 2 X 2 is 4, I would get a littany of arguments from those who enjoy that aspect of this forum.

[DeadManRuning]

[quote="drew"]As for results... they are not released on purpose to add a little drama. The rest is just YOUR opinion.

quote]


I don't think you got his point or even read it. He said nothing about not releasing the results during the boys ceremony. His first point was why they failed to announce 13-24 and then made those teams wait until after the girls ceremony to get the results of the boys. The suspense is for the top 5, not the bottom 10. It would have be nice to announce all the teams because they deserve the recognition and if not atleast let them get their results after the boys ceremony is over.

[CountryBumpkin91]

As for results... they are not released on purpose to add a little drama. The rest is just YOUR opinion.

As for the complaint about a few people on the course... The course belongs to the RUNNERS. Not the coachs... not the fans... not someone's dog that's just to much a part of the family to leave at home... NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BE ON THE COURSE DURING THE RACE PERIOD. You would not be expect to be allowed to stand on the 30 yard line during a football game just becuase the games being played on the other end. A coach did in fact convince a worker that they were allowed on the course and DID interfere with a runner from another team. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SO TOUGH ON THE FANS DURING THE RACE. If you do not understand that, that is your problem, that will NOT CHANGE. That is an IHSAA directive to protect the RUNNERS. As a fan you do not have a right to be on the course.

drew did you even read Trembo's post? cuz if you had you would have seen that he specifically said DURING and AFTER the AWARDS, not during the race itself. please read the entire post in the future before you begin arguing.

[drew]

Was there such a time crunch to get teams and fans out of the facility that all team scores were not announced? Some teams have to travel 4 hours so I don't think they would have minded waiting an extra minute or two to hear all 24 teams recognized rather than the top 12. After the announcement of the top 12 teams, the 13 - 24 teams were not allowed to pick up results until all the awards were completed. I personaly would have liked to hear all the results.

The first part was in response to the orginal post. I was responding to 2 seperate posts.

The suspense was in not giving out results so that it would be a suprise who won. The part about listing all 24 teams and not caring about time for teams that have to travel because they would like to hear all the results are opinions.

[isuxcjb]

I was up in the finish building during the awards ceremony and I was next to the announcer. He asked if they (they being IHSAA) wanted all 24 teams placements read off. He was told not to and only do the top 12. So that was why the top 12 was only announced.

[oldben]

I was up in the finish building during the awards ceremony and I was next to the announcer. He asked if they (they being IHSAA) wanted all 24 teams placements read off. He was told not to and only do the top 12. So that was why the top 12 was only announced.

Remember your ISHAA is really only interested in crowning a champion. This fact is made apparent every time the discussion of balancing the semi-state fields so that the top 24 teams actually run at the state meet.

Oh, and another thing, as a coach waiting in line with cold feet for the slow copier to print out copies of the results I have two suggestions:

1. Hand the results of the first race out after the awards are announced so those coaches aren't waiting in line at the end of the day.

2. GET A FASTER COPIER! SHEESH......

Some of us have several hours to drive to get our kids home.....

[RunIndiana]

Oldben - I agree. Coaches (and a few media folks) standing in line to get results after everyone else had left was very unprofessional - and unusual - and strange.

[indy_runr]

Let me first say that this is strictly my personal opinion. I don't know any of the people so I do not judge their character based off of a one time incident(although i did once witness a certain school's principal making a big jerk of himself on the course while yelling at fans at the state preview meet and was quite disappointed in his professionalism when I found out he was a PRINCIPAL!). I also did not attend this year's state meet so again, i'm not judging how yesterday was handled.

That being said, I have never really been overly impressed with the hospitality of the officials toward fans at Terre Haute. Like I said, I've watched state previews as well as state meets there and I almost always leave wondering what their problem is. If you go to any other course in the state you rarely (cuz i never like to say "never") see fans being shouted at quite as much. Ok, so it's the state meet course, they host NCAA nats etc. etc. I also went to almost every state meet at IU (a course that has much less structure for crowd control, i.e. fences) and yeah the golfcarts almost ran over your toes while you were standing along the course, but fans had a lot more freedom and I never saw the integrity of the race compromised as a result. Terre Haute, Bloomington...Different strokes for different folks I know. Those VERY FEW of the MANY volunteers working these meets often leave a stronger impression than the individuals that do a great job and treat the fans with respect. But again, this is simply my opinion.

Also, don't give me the whole "would you go onto the basketball court or football field during the game" crap. CC is different. If ya don't believe me, show me another sport where 5 teams get out of the sectional, regional, and 6 out of the semi-state...even before we had class sports. CC is different. Fan participation AND the ability to hear the full results after the race is greatly appreciated (had to sneak it back on topic at the end ).

[drew]

I love the way people piss and moan. I have had to do crowd control at the State meet and the NCAA's and it is a damn hard job because EVERYONE thinks they have the right to cross when they see fit. The problem is that the course at Terre Haute was designed for fans to get from point to point, and see more of the race... however it often means that people are crossing between runners and people don't always use the best judgement.

As for evening the Semi-States... any given year that would change... so you would change the entire state tourney every year so that you can get the state finals match up YOU want? Thats insane. If they change to a 5 semi-state system with 25 teams in the finals then fine but there is NO way to have a BALANCED SEMI-STATE... and yes the point of a state tourney is to crown a state champion... thats why it's the state tourney.

Ow and for all these post about get results... the results were on ihsaa.org within 10 minutes of the conclusion of the race. If you have an webbrowsing on your phone you could have known who won before the awards.

GROW UP. It's easy for you to set there at a distance and judge... those workers are there giving their time to the sport and the crowd treats them like crap. Have a little respect for the people who give up their saturday so your kids can run the state finals safe from interference.

[blsouthlaw]

I agree that there are many fans and even some coaches that crowd the running lines during the state meet, and I am suprised that many adults disregard (volunteer) officials that try to keep the course cleared during the race. I once again watched runners forced to follow a certain line when they could not run to one side or another of the designed course. But I am old enough to remember the days of everyone being held to one hill at South Grove to watch the State Meet.

As far as results, I believe it was insulting to not announce ALL 24 teams that participated in the meet. The fans that paid $8 a piece, and the teams that work hard to be there, deserved to hear the results. I do not know whos decision that was, but I believe it was wrong. And I am sorry, but I do not have a web phone.

One last thing, if running alongside a runner (pacing) to offer encouragement is wrong and against federation rules, is calling out encouragement from the back of the lead gator ok?

[CountryBumpkin91]

As for evening the Semi-States... any given year that would change... so you would change the entire state tourney every year so that you can get the state finals match up YOU want? Thats insane. If they change to a 5 semi-state system with 25 teams in the finals then fine but there is NO way to have a BALANCED SEMI-STATE... and yes the point of a state tourney is to crown a state champion... thats why it's the state tourney.

wait, who brought up the topic of evening the Semi-States?

[InTheMix]

Grow up? Take your own advise.

[oldben]

As for evening the Semi-States... any given year that would change... so you would change the entire state tourney every year so that you can get the state finals match up YOU want? Thats insane. If they change to a 5 semi-state system with 25 teams in the finals then fine but there is NO way to have a BALANCED SEMI-STATE... and yes the point of a state tourney is to crown a state champion... thats why it's the state tourney.

I simply pointed out the ISHAA point of view. I have no opinion about it. My comment was in response to someone lamenting that they didn't mention all of the teams in the results.

Ow and for all these post about get results... the results were on ihsaa.org within 10 minutes of the conclusion of the race. If you have an webbrowsing on your phone you could have known who won before the awards.

well, drew, some of us don't have internet access or cell phones. If they were online, then there's really no validity to the explaination I was given at the coach's meeting for not simply handing out the results and that was to create some suspense at the awards ceremony.

GROW UP. It's easy for you to set there at a distance and judge... those workers are there giving their time to the sport and the crowd treats them like crap. Have a little respect for the people who give up their saturday so your kids can run the state finals safe from interference.

LOL...I am grown up...maybe you're not referring to me here but I have plenty of respect for anyone who volunteers, however, just because someone gives up there time doen't mean the rest of us can't expect some level of competence from them (I'm not saying they weren't competent...my complaints were exclusively about how they distributed the results). BTW I was told as I was waiting that all of the media already had their collective hands on the results before any of the coach's. Ass backwards IMHO!



I'm done. Overall a great meet. The ISHAA has come a long way from the days of mismeasuring the course, helping a fallen runner through the finish (thereby disqualifying her) and having such a back up at the finish so the boys were lined up 50 meters BEFORE the chute...I

[DeadManRuning]

Ow and for all these post about get results... the results were on ihsaa.org within 10 minutes of the conclusion of the race. If you have an webbrowsing on your phone you could have known who won before the awards.

Actually I was standing there waiting and talking on the phone to someone that had internet access and they said they weren't up on the ihsaa.org. But as Old Ben said if they were then there really is no reason not to pass out the boys results after the boys ceremony.

[drew]

I agree that there are many fans and even some coaches that crowd the running lines during the state meet, and I am suprised that many adults disregard (volunteer) officials that try to keep the course cleared during the race. I once again watched runners forced to follow a certain line when they could not run to one side or another of the designed course. But I am old enough to remember the days of everyone being held to one hill at South Grove to watch the State Meet.

As far as results, I believe it was insulting to not announce ALL 24 teams that participated in the meet. The fans that paid $8 a piece, and the teams that work hard to be there, deserved to hear the results. I do not know whos decision that was, but I believe it was wrong. And I am sorry, but I do not have a web phone.

One last thing, if running alongside a runner (pacing) to offer encouragement is wrong and against federation rules, is calling out encouragement from the back of the lead gator ok?

The IHSAA is WAY to touchy on pacing...period. I agree that all 24 team should get credit, not sure why they weren't but my point was that it was a matter of Opinion that teams that have a long drive don't care about how long the awards take. I can assure you that half the kids there (including whatever team you are with, LOL) do have a phone with web browsing or you can call someone at home that can look at their computer that however the joke is that they don't let results get released to coachs but they post it on-line with-in minutes... ironic don't you think? I agree too that if the coachs are not to have results until after the awards niether should the media (or the IHSAA web-site)

BTW, great race by both Anna and Nicole. I know Anna was in a boot going into the meet so finishing in the top 25 in the mud was very impressive.

[distancefan]

This post is not directed towards the State Meet, but as a general comment regarding results. I can't count the number of meets I have been to where I leave not knowing what the final results are or finishing times. I usually just wait until I get home and hopefully can find eventually find them on the internet. (Big assistance by IR). Can you imagine though if everyone left after a football or basketball game and had to wait for the results to be tabulated and posted? Hopefully with the continued improvement in scoring and timing technology, the results may eventually become almost immediate. This would make cross country and track more spectator friendly to the average fan.

Also, I am interested in anyone's opinion on scoring based on cumulative times of the top 5 instead of positions? Though I like the purity and simplicity of placing runners, by totaling the runners' times would give each runner more incentive to run their fastest even if there is no one close enough to pass.

By the way, I actually think the volunteers at Terre Haute do an overall good job of moving people around considering the amount of spectators and the ground conditions. I think there might be even more spectators at the IHSAA meet than the NCAA Nationals.

[RunIndiana]

I agree too that if the coachs are not to have results until after the awards niether should the media (or the IHSAA web-site)

Your sentence doesn't characterize what happened. Copies of the results were NOT available in sufficient quantities AFTER the awards ceremony was over. No one needs to know the results before they announce them. But coaches and media shouldn't have to stand in line for an hour after the awards ceremony is over and wait for copies to be printed - a few at a time.

And clear up another question - I see the word "volunteers" in many of the messages here. Are they really volunteers. I thought the IHSAA paid for the use and management of the facility and meet. Is that not true?

[drew]

Times don't matter in cross country. It is all about who you beat. Sure it's nice to say you've run 15:30 or whatever but it doesn't really mean anything. You have to beat PEOPLE and that is why it is scored the way it is. Besides at the state meet kids are going all out no matter what. The only guy that won't go all out is the state champ if he coasts in for an easy victory and even then he'll only lose a couple seconds at most.

But in reply to the main points of this thread:

1. The IHSAA should have read the top 24 teams off. It was pretty disrespectful to the teams outside of the top twelve. When they started reading results I turned to someone and said, "Wait, did they start with 12th? Or did I just miss the first 12 teams?" Just because you finished outside of the top 12 does not mean you didn't work extremely hard all season in order to make it to the state meet which is a great accomplishment. Trust me, just because a team finished outside of the top 12 does not mean they aren't a good team, there were, are, and will be some great teams that finish outside of the top 12 at state, especially in a year like this.

2. Regarding not having results immediately after meets I have mixed feelings. At state I love the suspense. Not knowing the outcome of the meet is great and when you figure out it's pretty amazing. At big meets, Culver, New Prairie, Flashrock, Eagle Classic, State Preview, stuff like that, they could hold them for a little while to build some suspense and then release them to the public. After the conclusion of the meet the results should be compiled as quickly as possible and begin to be printed so that the coaches and media members don't have to wait around to get full results to take for the bus ride home. At meets of less importance, smaller invitationals, dual meets, what have you, I don't feel there is a need to withhold results, just get them out so the public can see them.

Agreed, well said.

[Just_The_Facts]

I agree that all 24 team should get credit, not sure why they weren't but my point was that it was a matter of Opinion that teams that have a long drive don't care about how long the awards take.

Funny that Drew is the only one arguing...affirmaion on one of my points that 2 X 2 = 4 would create an argument by some. He makes several posts arguing the origninal post then makes a 180 by agreeing to my entire point that all 24 teams should be announced. I hardly call it opinion that teams who travel for 2 days would fuss about literally an extra 2 mins to announce scores for 12 more teams. I'm not talking about bringing them up to the podium for pictures or anything.

[drew]

I agree too that if the coachs are not to have results until after the awards niether should the media (or the IHSAA web-site)

Your sentence doesn't characterize what happened. Copies of the results were NOT available in sufficient quantities AFTER the awards ceremony was over. No one needs to know the results before they announce them. But coaches and media shouldn't have to stand in line for an hour after the awards ceremony is over and wait for copies to be printed - a few at a time.

And clear up another question - I see the word "volunteers" in many of the messages here. Are they really volunteers. I thought the IHSAA paid for the use and management of the facility and meet. Is that not true?

If the worst thing that happens at a state meet (or any meet of that size) is a delay in the printing of the results then I would say it was a good meet. It's easy in hind sight to know that the copier that was available did not keep up, that will be fixed before next year but my time machine does not work so I'm going to move on with my life. IHSAA pays for the costs but the people working are VOLUNTEERS. If you would like to leave me your cell phone number I will make sure you are contacted to offer your services next October.

[bmwguy]

I had to drive 4 hours to get there and watch my son run. It is the first time his school has ever made it to the state finals and I left without knowing where he finished and where his team finished. I found out on the way home from my brother in Virginia. They had a big screen that they could have listed everyone with the team scores.
Maybe they will get it right next year.

[oldben]

If the worst thing that happens at a state meet (or any meet of that size) is a delay in the printing of the results then I would say it was a good meet. It's easy in hind sight to know that the copier that was available did not keep up, that will be fixed before next year but my time machine does not work so I'm going to move on with my life. IHSAA pays for the costs but the people working are VOLUNTEERS. If you would like to leave me your cell phone number I will make sure you are contacted to offer your services next October.

Hindsight? Nobody knew the copier was a dog before the meet? I turned to someone and offered that I knew of people who could type the results faster than the copier was churning them out!

There you go again, insisting because you've volunteered, regardless of how good or bad you perform, everyone should be happy with it or be prepared to do better. Tell you what, you wait in line for an hour and then tell me about how it's no big deal.

Some orginizations would use this feedback to improve the quality of the event next time. Some originizations actually solicict this kind of feedback. Instead, we have you defending (at least some of the time) things that could be easily fixed. I'm not clear about why you're so defensive in the first place.