IndianaRunner

[chrisgriffin]

I guess it takes a country bumpkin like myself to understand the sarcasim of my picks. I would never debate the strength of the teams from central Indiana against teams from other parts of the state, the results don't lie. However when a teams like Chesterton, which nobody predicted as high as runner up, continually get no respect,that makes me shake my head and wonder. Many of the State predictions this year had five teams from FC in the top 5, then they rationalize their picks by saying things like this team or that team didn't run a good race. Well I have news for you central Indiana lovers, Chesterton probably didn't run their best race either. YES, I get it central Indiana overall has better and deeper teams than any other area of the state, but there are exceptions, and when there are, some fail to recognize these teams and individuals. My real predictions 1. CN, 2. North Central, 3. Hamilton SE, 4. THN, 5. LaPorte

[RoboCop]

1. Chesterton
2. LaPorte
3. Concord
4. Valpo
5. New Prairie

Fail.

Possibly the worst predictions I've ever seen. There's a reason for the so called bias. The teams from the FC semi state went 1,3,4,6,7,8. The teams that come out of that semi state are better. Period.

It's not bias when the facts are right in front of you. I will reiterate what Mr Mile stated earlier- The teams coming from the Carmel SemiState are just straght better. Central Indiana statistically is the best region currently for Cross Country. Theres no debate, no bias. Its a fact. Nothing else should be said. Boom. Over. Done. Roasted. Finished.

[Colin]

I think one question would be what constitutes "central" Indiana. Does being in in the Carmel Semistate make a team a "central" Indiana team and being in the Brown County Semistate make a team a "southern" Indiana team. Terre Haute is actually north of Columbus. Are Terre Haute North and Columbus North both "central" Indiana teams?

[13sky]

Many of the State predictions this year had five teams from FC in the top 5

Although there is a big Carmel Semi-State bias, I don't recall anyone saying that the top 5 teams would be from that Semi-State. Most had Carmel, North Central, Noblesville and Columbus North on there though.

[jtcorbin]

The "bias" argument and the class system debate both come down to the same issue, which equals where the big school enrollments are located.

The Carmel semistate contains Indiana's only 3 mega-schools of over 3800 students and 13 of the biggest 20 schools in the state. Those schools will always have high-caliber xc programs and the schools that survive those regionals and semistate will no doubt be top-flight performers at state. The big schools are deep with talent and not dependent on the performances of 1-2 runners to succeed to expectations. The small-medium sized schools that come out of other semistates are hosed if 1-2 guys underperform. On the whole, there is nothing out of the ordinary about (3) of the (8) sectionals feeding into the Carmel semistate - the South Dearborn, South Putnam, or Connersville sectionals, but again that's where the smaller schools are - not the 2000+ enrollment-schools. Interesting note that Carmel HS alone has as much 2009 enrollment as the cumulative enrollments of the all the schools combined in other whole sectionals (South Knox, Jasper, w/team scores). Yes people may get tired of hearing how so and so's JV could do, or how the 10th best team here is better than the winner there, etc , but facts are facts and numbers & times don't lie.

Teams in the Indpls area naturally get more overall attention when they're always competing against other strong programs/big schools. The mistake can be made however to dismiss teams like N.Harrison, West Lafayette, or West Noble primarily due to running conference meets vs weak-ish schools or duals/3-ways vs similar-sized schools which likely aren't that strong, etc. -- and/or to blanketly dismiss a team who dominates an invitational or sectional/regional just because the full field wasn't first-rate. I know there are pros and cons to a class system, but I think if people want attention more spread out around the state or less bias to Indpls schools, a class system would help since all the big Indpls-area schools would be in the same class while the outlying areas would battle the urban parochials for championships in the smaller class(es). Otherwise, you can't logically argue that you want one-class sports but yet you don't want the attention going to the biggest, and inevitably most successful, teams.

[no_excuses]

I think one question would be what constitutes "central" Indiana. Does being in in the Carmel Semistate make a team a "central" Indiana team and being in the Brown County Semistate make a team a "southern" Indiana team. Terre Haute is actually north of Columbus. Are Terre Haute North and Columbus North both "central" Indiana teams?

I will be honest and say that I have no idea how Columbus North is in the Carmel semi-state. They should clearly be in the Brown County semi-state, especially if Columbus is south of Terre Haute.

[fastrack1021]

I am also getting tired of people who obviously arent from Central Indiana complaining about the "Central Indiana so-called bias". Most of the time the people who post about central Indiana runners or might have the majority of their predictions come from aren't favoring the region or not accounting for the rest of the state. (with the exception of a couple). It has been proven over the past 3 or 4 years that Central Indiana is the dominant area in our state. In '05, 4 of the top 5 teams were from the Carmel Semi-State. '06, 3 out of 5 were Carmel Semi State. In '08, 6/10 for individuals and teams were from the Carmel Semi State. And in '09, 6 out of top 10 were from the CSS. Its been proven that central Indiana is faster. I'm not saying that they produce better talent than the other parts, because the other semi states are less dense and populated than central Indiana. It's just that Central Indiana produces more fast runners. So please stop snapping at us from Central Indiana for our "bias".

[jtcorbin]

Its been proven that central Indiana is faster. I'm not saying that they produce better talent than the other parts, because the other semi states are less dense and populated than central Indiana. It's just that Central Indiana produces more fast runners. So please stop snapping at us from Central Indiana for our "bias".

Yes, higher enrollments = more participants. More participants = (all of) more upper-echelon performers, more middle-of-the-road performers, and more lower-caliber performers. However when each school puts forth only their best performers to compete in the tourneys, we only really see the upper-echolon performers. Like I said earlier, there are some entire sectionals, e.g. South Knox and Jasper, where there are no individual schools of > 1000 enrollment and the combined enrollments of all schools who posted a team score in '09 are less than 5000. Of the Carmel, Brebeuf, New Pal, South Put, and Ben Davis sectionals (all of which feed to Carmel SemiState) the smallest of those is 11000 combined enrollment,going up to the Carmel sectional which has combined enrollments of over 17000. It would be an unfathomable mathematical anomaly for the schools at South Knox or Jasper sectionals to consistently produce 4-5 better teams than 4-5 teams at the Ben Davis or Carmel sectionals, though a superior team here and there is certainly fathomable. It's not bias so much as just recognition of where the large schools/large teams are located.

[cc_logbook]

"I will be honest and say that I have no idea how Columbus North is in the Carmel semi-state. They should clearly be in the Brown County semi-state, especially if Columbus is south of Terre Haute." -- no_excuses

I remember when the Columbus schools were in the south, and so do the other old farts on this board. A commonly-held theory is this: Floyd Central wielded some real power in the IHSAA back in the day. The Columbus schools were moved because it just made things easier for the Highlanders.

Bring both Columbus schools over to Brown County. Much of the semi-state "mess" -- the south "too weak" -- would be cleaned up by simply moving TWO schools from their semi-state to one which makes more geographic sense. (Replace them at Edinburgh with a couple of schools -- South Decatur and Greensburg -- out of the South Dearborn sectional..... which gives both sectionals, then, 11 schools.)

Send Bloomington South and maybe Eastern Greene down to BNL, and then move a school or two out of the BNL regional to the Crawford County regional, which only has 22 schools total -- 11 in each sectional (Jasper and Crawford County). (Another possibility would be to take the more westernmost schools out of B.C. -- like Owen Valley -- and send them towards Terre Haute with the idea of moving two out of Terre Haute towards the Pike Central regional....but P.C. already has 26 schools......which is why the move towards sending a couple towards Crawford County -- to make room for Eastern Greene and Bloomington
South at nearby BNL -- makes more sense.)

No big schools are moved OUT of the south; two -- including the CN powerhouse -- are brought in; the Bedford regional becomes more competive with Bloomington South going there (I'll miss you, Larry, but at least you won't have to face CN until the semi-state); the Crawford County regional gains a couple of schools to put it on even footing, numbers-wise, with the other southern regionals.......heck, what's not to like about this?

And then imagine these schools coming out of the southern semi-state: Columbus North, Terre Haute North, North Harrison......argh! What have I done!

Bring on the Bulldogs and the Olympians!

[RoboCop]

"I will be honest and say that I have no idea how Columbus North is in the Carmel semi-state. They should clearly be in the Brown County semi-state, especially if Columbus is south of Terre Haute." -- no_excuses

I remember when the Columbus schools were in the south, and so do the other old farts on this board. A commonly-held theory is this: Floyd Central wielded some real power in the IHSAA back in the day. The Columbus schools were moved because it just made things easier for the Highlanders.

Bring both Columbus schools over to Brown County. Much of the semi-state "mess" -- the south "too weak" -- would be cleaned up by simply moving TWO schools from their semi-state to one which makes more geographic sense. (Replace them at Edinburgh with a couple of schools -- South Decatur and Greensburg -- out of the South Dearborn sectional..... which gives both sectionals, then, 11 schools.)

Send Bloomington South and maybe Eastern Greene down to BNL, and then move a school or two out of the BNL regional to the Crawford County regional, which only has 22 schools total -- 11 in each sectional (Jasper and Crawford County). (Another possibility would be to take the more westernmost schools out of B.C. -- like Owen Valley -- and send them towards Terre Haute with the idea of moving two out of Terre Haute towards the Pike Central regional....but P.C. already has 26 schools......which is why the move towards sending a couple towards Crawford County -- to make room for Eastern Greene and Bloomington
South at nearby BNL -- makes more sense.)

No big schools are moved OUT of the south; two -- including the CN powerhouse -- are brought in; the Bedford regional becomes more competive with Bloomington South going there (I'll miss you, Larry, but at least you won't have to face CN until the semi-state); the Crawford County regional gains a couple of schools to put it on even footing, numbers-wise, with the other southern regionals.......heck, what's not to like about this?

And then imagine these schools coming out of the southern semi-state: Columbus North, Terre Haute North, North Harrison......argh! What have I done!

Bring on the Bulldogs and the Olympians!

well, it would give everyone in the Carmel semistate a little breathing room

[jtcorbin]

Two relevant issues:
1) the IHSAA tries to relatively balance the # of schools, not the quality of schools but just the # of schools, per sectional who supposedly "enter" the tournament. However this makes questionable sense since the number of participating schools per the IHSAA website"entered" in the tournament is vastly different than the number of schools who actually show up at the sectional meet with complete teams, or even runners at all. The IHSAA shows 378 cross country schools making up its sectionals, but if you look at the sectional results you'll find way less than that many teams posting team scores - on the girls side there was well below 300 team scores. The IHSAA shows Wood Memorial HS as a participant in the South Knox sectional but they didn't even have a team this year - no runners and entered no meets in '09. Other schools may have had something like one female participant and no males, but in any event there's a vast difference in type of program of Carmel vs Washington Catholic for the IHSAA to simply count number of schools and put in approx 12 nearby schools apiece when assigning sectionals.

2) the location of the southern semistate in Brown County highlights the Columbus issue. Brown Co is on the absolute edge or NE corner of the geographic footprint which makes up the semistate's schools. It's 2-1/2 hours from the Evansville or Posey Co. schools who feed there, but 20 minutes from the Columbus schools who don't feed there. Not saying they shouldn't host because they're not centrally located, but it just makes the Columbus situation look more senseless. Terre Haute these days is more closely associated with Indpls due to THS & THN's affilitations with the Indpls schools in the MIC conference and the Morgan Co. schools of Martinsville/Mooresville/Monrovia/Eminence are just one county south of Marion Co. so it would seem more feasible that the (2) Columbus schools and perhaps all or most of the (13) South Dearborn sectional trade places with the (4) TH schools, the (4) Morgan Co. schools, and Northview/South Vermillion/Riverton Parke/Cloverdale which are all north of Terre Haute, not to mention well north of Columbus and way way north of places like Rising Sun/South Dearborn/Jac-Cen-Del which currently feed to Carmel . . . .especially if the southern semistate is to remain hosted at a "northeastern" location of southern IN such as Brown County.

[cc_logbook]

You'll get no argument from me on either of your points. Geographically, it does seem skewed in so many ways....but the IHSAA will always talk about NUMBER of schools, and there are far more small schools in the south.

And, yes, the driving distances always seem a little whacko, yet you're always going to have schools at the fringe of one semi-state not too far from another semi-state -- a long as there are semi-states not centrally located.

But the IHSAA can't worry a whole lot about quality; these things tend to go in cycles....go back a few years and see how New Prairie, and, specifically, the Duneland conference dominated. I think you almost have to make quality a non-issue, because the IHSAA isn't about to do any wholesale re-districting.

I was merely trying to suggest a way to get the two Columbus schools back in the south, where they used to be. . . and by simply moving them back there would be a little more balance, with a net change of just two moving from one semi-state to another.

[cc_logbook]

I just looked at the IHSAA map again, as well as the way the different sectionals feed into regionals feed into semi-states. The issues you raise, jtcorbin, are all over: Who would've ever guessed the South Bend schools end up going to Fort Wayne (New Haven) rather than New Prairie!

Again, it's all a royal pain in the watusi. Going back to the original post that started all this, I was simply answering the political reasons as to how Columbus was moved out of the South.

Moderators, maybe all of these about the semi-state lineups should be cut out of this thread and pasted into another one. Heck, somehow we got from 2010 cross to Columbus is in the south and Terre Haute isn't.

As for this 2010 Cross Country thread, I continue to predict a continued resurgence of x-c in the southern semi-state, with or without Columbus!

[XC_TRunner93]

Stickin with the always dangerous hcc, noblesville looks incredible. HSE will be very very strong as long as wartenburg doesn't finish his season the way he did this year, but i heard he had a swine scare, so very understandable. Fishers was inconsistent this year, but they're getting a stud freshmen, and who knows, maybe they'll get it together to have a decent run next season. Zionsville's current sophomore (obviously will be juniors) tandem of berger and bixler is one of the greatest weapons in the sport. when you can get two young guys in the same grade running those times that close together on one team, the future is very bright.

[lifesgood]

lifesgood, I thought this was a 2010 State Meet thread, looks like you are predicting the Franklin Central Semi State. Why don't you pull your head out of your central indiana ass and recognize that there are runners in other parts of the state. As someone stated above, even without David Osborn, Chesterton the 2ND PLACE TEAM IN THE STATE OF INDIANA (ahead of all the FC Semi teams that were supposed to beat them) will be very strong again. I very much enjoy reading and following Indiana CC on this website but the central Indiana bias is almost too much to take. Oh, and here are my predictions for next year
1. Chesterton
2. LaPorte
3. Concord
4. Valpo
5. New Prairie

its the Carmel Semi State

[Johnnyrunner]

I wonder if discussions like the ones about the Carmel Semi-state would have taken place in the 80's and 90's when the state top 5 was dominated by teams out of the New Prairie Semi State. Yes, you had your sprinkled teams in the top 5 or even winning it from other semi-states/regionals. However, most of those state finals in that 20 year period had just about 3 teams in top 5 year after year. Some years even three teams in the same conference would go 1-3 or 4 of the top 5. Heck, based upon the facts from the state website, three of the top 4 schools that have appeared in the state finals the most times are from the same conference. Just thought it would be interesting to see if conversation like what has taken place in the course of the past 7-8 years about how dominate the FC/Carmel Semi-State has been, and for the most part has, would have been the same back in the day.

[lifesgood]

1. Noblesville
2. Columbus North
3. Carmel
4. North Central
5. HSE

Sticking with it

EDIT: Sorry chrisgriffin